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themuzicman

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The literal Greek would read:

"For the heart has believed into righteousness, and the mouth has confessed into salvation."

Obviously some translation has to be applied, but saying "resulting in" isn't a terrible working out of "into." It doesn't speak of cause, but rather effect.

Most of the rest of your discussion falls under the "whole word" fallacy, where you insist that a word must always mean the same thing every time it is used.

Muz
 
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nobdysfool

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I know the past you take and it does not apply to spiritual birth, for if it did then God would not require a response of the unborn. We may use terms that are interchangeable but that in no way dedicates that one process is the same as the other. This was Nicks problem he equated spiritual birth to physical birth and Jesus correct his thinking using the story about the snake on a pole, look and live.

No Nick did not "equate" spiritual birth to physical birth, he was confused by the term "birth", as apparently you are. Does the one being born "do" anything to bring about the birth? No, they do not. The birth happens to them, they do not cause it, or make it happen. They are the one being born, not the one causing the birth to happen. There's a reason why the term "birth" is used, and the physical is the analog of the spiritual, and vice versa.

That is why regeneration is the new birth, and why the one being regenerated does not cause it, or make it happen by anything they do, or believe. Regeneration is the beginning, not the end or the middle. They believe AFTER they are re-born, the same as the baby breathes AFTER it is born. It is a normal, AUTOMATIC reaction.
 
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DeaconDean

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No Nick did not "equate" spiritual birth to physical birth, he was confused by the term "birth", as apparently you are. Does the one being born "do" anything to bring about the birth? No, they do not. The birth happens to them, they do not cause it, or make it happen. They are the one being born, not the one causing the birth to happen. There's a reason why the term "birth" is used, and the physical is the analog of the spiritual, and vice versa.

That is why regeneration is the new birth, and why the one being regenerated does not cause it, or make it happen by anything they do, or believe. Regeneration is the beginning, not the end or the middle. They believe AFTER they are re-born, the same as the baby breathes AFTER it is born. It is a normal, AUTOMATIC reaction.

I'm afraid your wrong dear brother.

A person is physically born of their own "free will". :D

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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The literal Greek would read:

"For the heart has believed into righteousness, and the mouth has confessed into salvation."

Obviously some translation has to be applied, but saying "resulting in" isn't a terrible working out of "into." It doesn't speak of cause, but rather effect.

Most of the rest of your discussion falls under the "whole word" fallacy, where you insist that a word must always mean the same thing every time it is used.

Muz

Now I never said any such thing.

What I said was believing does not "result in" righteousness.

Both righteousness and justification come from the same Greek word.

"eiV " on the other hand, has many meanings, but not one of them speaks of "eiV" as "result".

the same Greek word is used in Acts 2:38:

"petroV de proV autouV, metanohsate, [fhsin,] kai baptisqhtw ekastoV umwn epi tw onomati ihsou cristou eiV afesin twn amartiwn umwn, kai lhmyesqe thn dwrean tou agiou pneumatoV:" -Acts 2:38 (GNT)

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." -Acts 2:38 (KJV)

There is the word "eiV" again.

It is also used when Jesus speaks of Jonah preaching in Nineveh:

"andreV nineuitai anasthsontai en th krisei meta thV geneaV tauthV kai katakrinousin authn: oti metenohsan eiV to khrugma iwna, kai idou pleion iwna wde." -Mt. 12:41 (GNT)

"The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." -Mt. 12:41 (KJV)

In the Baptist faith, people do not get baptized to have their sins removed, yet that is the context in which "eiV" is used.

The same rule would apply here in Mt. 12:41.

Did the people of Nineveh repent to produce the "result" of Jonah preaching?

The people of Nineveh repented "because of" the preaching of Jonah.

Likewise, we are baptized "because of" the remission of sin.

And we are declared "righteous" and "justified" because of a decree of God, not "for" faith, not on "account of" faith, and not as a "result" of faith.

WE are declared righteous and justified because of what faith reaches out and grasps hold of.

We are justified by faith, not for faith, not for what faith is, rather, because of what faith receives.

“It has no efficacy of itself, but as it is the bond of our union with Christ. The whole virtue of cleansing proceeds from Christ the object. We receive the water with our hands, but the cleansing virtue is not in our hands, but in the water, yet the water cannot cleanse us without our receiving it; our receiving it unites the water to us, and is the means whereby we are cleansed. And therefore, it is observed that our justification by faith is always expressed in the passive, not the active; we are justified by faith, not that faith justifies us. The efficacy is in Christ’s blood, the reception of it is our faith.” (Stephen Charnock)


You cannot find anywhere in the scriptures a “justified unbeliever.” There is nothing meritorious about believing, yet it is necessary in order for justification. It is not only the righteousness of Christ as imputed which justifies, but also as received. (cf. Rom. 5:11, 17) The righteousness of Christ is not mine until I accept it as God’s gift. The believing sinner is “justified by faith” only instrumentally, as thus “lives by eating” only instrumentally. Eating is the particular act by which he receives and appropriates food. Strictly speaking, he lives by bread alone, not by eating, or the act of masticating. And, strictly speaking, the sinner is justified by Christ’s sacrifice alone, not by his act of believing in it. (William G.T. Shedd) In the application of justification faith is not a builder, but a beholder; not an agent, but an instrument; it has nothing to do, but all to believe; nothing to give, but all to receive.

The Doctrine of Justification, Restated and Reviewed, by Me.

Righteousness is provided by Jesus, God declares it, and faith receives it.

Faith does not result in righteousness.

You may think I'm forcing words to be interpreted one way only, but in fact, I have never said such a thing.

But at least I am not forcing the word to mean something its not.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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No Nick did not "equate" spiritual birth to physical birth, he was confused by the term "birth", as apparently you are. Does the one being born "do" anything to bring about the birth? No, they do not. The birth happens to them, they do not cause it, or make it happen. They are the one being born, not the one causing the birth to happen. There's a reason why the term "birth" is used, and the physical is the analog of the spiritual, and vice versa.

That is why regeneration is the new birth, and why the one being regenerated does not cause it, or make it happen by anything they do, or believe. Regeneration is the beginning, not the end or the middle. They believe AFTER they are re-born, the same as the baby breathes AFTER it is born. It is a normal, AUTOMATIC reaction.
I do understand your approach but I opt to stick with the order of the Bible. John 3 is a classical teaching that supports my view. The application of the snake was for Nick so that he would have an earthly illustration to help him understand. The Jews had to simply look and live and Nick only need to look and live. This means he needed to trust in Christ not think he could be physically born again. His new birth would result because of his trust in Christ - Look and Live, If this then that. Cause and effect Cause you believe I will save says Jesus, Luke 7:50 Romans 10 and many more.
 
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The literal Greek would read:

"For the heart has believed into righteousness, and the mouth has confessed into salvation."

Obviously some translation has to be applied, but saying "resulting in" isn't a terrible working out of "into." It doesn't speak of cause, but rather effect.

Most of the rest of your discussion falls under the "whole word" fallacy, where you insist that a word must always mean the same thing every time it is used.

Muz


1519 eis (a preposition) – properly, into (unto) – literally, "motion into which" implying penetration ("unto," "union") to a particular purpose or result.

source

As you can see the definition and meanings of eis renders your view null and void. If it is into then the direction of confess and believe are cause and effect - if this then that and as well one take the other meaning which most translators used then unto "from this to that" based upon what man does as required by God to then be saved.

Faith first salvation second is the order of salvation taught in Scripture.
 
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Then you believe that you caused God to save you. Something you did caused Him to save you. That is what you're saying.


No I did not say it God did via the word. The faith that man exercises is not a work it is simply acknowledging that I can't work for my salvation. My faith does not work but trust in the work of God.
 
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Hammster

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For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
 
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3 For by the grace given to me, I tell everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he should think. (At this point we know that Paul is addressing only REAL believers)

Instead, think sensibly, as God has distributed a measure of faith to each one.

This faith that was given in MEASURE is given for the purpose of the believer not to think of themselves higher than they should but to think sensibly. Now, to apply this measured faith as believing faith is a sure move in an exercise of eisegesis. It cannot be said of this verse that it has any connection to believing faith. I have maintained that there isn't one single verse in God's word that demonstrates remotely that saving faith is a gift for the purpose of believing unto salvation, but that man's faith comes form man himself by virtue of the fact that he is created in the image of God. Calvinism is completely wrong and many Arminian have bought into this tragic misinterpretation of God's word.


4 Now as we have many parts in one body, and all the parts do not have the same function, 5 in the same way we who are many are one body in Christ and individually members of one another. 6 According to the grace given to us, we have different gifts:

If prophecy, use it according to the standard of one’s faith;
7 if service, in service; if teaching, in teaching;
8 if exhorting, in exhortation; giving, with generosity; leading, with diligence; showing mercy, with cheerfulness.
Romans 12:3-8 (HCSB)

The measure of faith in this context is related to the gifts, not to regeneration. Thinking higher than one should is tied to ones gift not to salvation.
 
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nobdysfool

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No I did not say it God did via the word. The faith that man exercises is not a work it is simply acknowledging that I can't work for my salvation. My faith does not work but trust in the work of God.

Dodge it all you want. You believe you cause your own salvation.
 
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DeaconDean

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1519 eis (a preposition) – properly, into (unto) – literally, "motion into which" implying penetration ("unto," "union") to a particular purpose or result.

source

Properly:

εἰς or ἐς , PREP. WITH ACC. ONLY:—both forms are found in Hom., Ion. poets, and early metrical Inscrr.; ἐς is best attested in Hdt. and Hp., and is found in nearly all early Ion. Inscrr. (exc. IG12(8).262.16 (Thasos, v B. C.), ib.7.235.1 (Oropus, iv B. C.)); εἰς in Att. Inscrr. from iv B. C., IG2.115, etc.; and usu. in Att. Prose (exc. Th.) and Com. (exc. in parody): Trag. apptly. prefer εἰς, but ἐς is used before vowels metri gr.; ἐς was retained in the phrases ἐς κόρακας (whence the Verb σκορακίζω), ἐς μακαρίαν. Aeol. poets have εἰς before vowels, ἐς before consonants, and this is given as the rule in Hom. by An.Ox. 1.172, cf. Hellad. ap. Phot.Bibl.p.533B. (Orig. ἐνς, as in IG4.554.7 (Argos), GDI4986.11 (Crete); cf. ἐν, ἰν. The diphthong is genuine in Aeol. εἰς, but spurious in Att.-Ion.) Radical sense

A. into, and then more loosely, to:

I. OF PLACE,

the oldest and commonest usage, εἰς ἅλα into or to the sea, Il.1.141, al.; “εἰς ἅλαδε” Od.10.351; “ἔς ῥ᾽ ἀσαμίνθους” 4.48; ἐς οἶνον βάλε φάρμακον ib.220; freq. of places, to, “εἰς Εὔβοιαν” 3.174; ἐς Αἴγυπτον, etc., Hdt.1.5, etc.; ἐς Μίλητον into the territory of Miletus, ib.14; “εἰς Ἑλλήσποντον εἰσέπλει” X.HG1.1.2; “ἀφίκετο εἰς Μήδους πρὸς Κυαξάρην” Id.Cyr.2.1.2; εἰς ἅρματα βαίνειν to step into . . , Il.8.115; “εἰς ἐλάτην ἀναβῆναι” 14.287; opp. ἐκ, in such phrases as ἐς σφυρὸν ἐκ πτέρνης, ἐς πόδας ἐκ κεφαλῆς, from heel to ankle-joint, from head to foot, 22.397, 23.169; “ἐκ πάτου ἐς σκοπιήν” 20.137; “ἐς μυχὸν ἐξ οὐδοῦ” Od.7.87; κἠς ἔτος ἐξ ἔτεος from year to year, Theoc. 18.15: with Verbs implying motion or direction, as of looking, “ἰδεῖν εἰς οὐρανόν” Il.3.364; εἰς ὦπα ἰδέσθαι to look in the face, 9.373, etc.; εἰς ὦπα ἔοικεν he is like in face (sc. ἰδόντι), 3.158, etc.; ἐς ὀφθαλμούς τινος ἐλθεῖν to come before another's eyes, 24.204; “ἐς ὄψιν ἀπικνέεσθαί τινος” Hdt.1.136; “καλέσαι τινὰ ἐς ὄψιν” Id.5.106, etc.; ἐς ταὐτὸν ἥκειν come to the same point, E.Hipp.273: less freq. after a Subst., “ὁδὸς ἐς λαύρην” Od.22.128; τὸ ἐς Παλλήνην τεῖχος facing Pallene, Th.1.56; “ξύνοδος ἐς τὴν Δῆλον” Id.3.104, cf.Pl.Tht.173d.

b. Ep. and Ion., also c. acc. pers. (Att. ὡς, πρός, παρά), Il.7.312, 15.402, Od.14.127, Hdt.4.147; also in Att. with collective Nouns, “ἐς τὸν δῆμον παρελθόντες” Th. 5.45, or plurals, “εἰς ὑμᾶς εἰσῆλθον” D.18.103; esp. of consulting an oracle, “ἐς θεὸν ἐλθεῖν” Pi.O.7.31; “εἰς Ἄμμων᾽ ἐλθόντες” Ar.Av.619.

2. with Verbs expressing restin a place, when a previous motion into or to it is implied, ἐς μέγαρον κατέθηκεν ἐπὶ θρόνου he put it in the house (i.e. he brought it into the house, and put it there), Od.20.96; ἐς θρόνους ἕζοντο they sat them down upon the seats, 4.51, cf. 1.130; ἐφάνη λὶς εἰς ὁδόν the lion appeared in the path, Il.15.276; “ἀπόστολος ἐς τὴν Μίλητον ἦν” Hdt.1.21 (s. v.l.); “αὐτὸς ἐς Αακεδαίμονα ἀπόστολος ἐγίνετο” Id.5.38; “ἐς κώμην παραγίνονται” Id.1.185; “παρῆν ἐς Σάρδις” Id.6.1; “ἐς δόμους μένειν” S.Aj.80 (cod. Laur.); “ἐς τὴν νῆσον κατέκλῃσε” Th.1.109, cf. Hdt.3.13; ἀπόβασιν ποιήσασθαι ἐς . . Th.2.33, etc.; later used like ἐν, τὴν γῆν εἰς ἣν ὑμεῖς κατοικεῖτε LXX Nu.35.34; “τὸ χρυσίον ὃ εἰλήφεσαν εἰς Ῥώμην” D.S.14.117; “οἰκεῖν εἰς τὰ Ὕπατα” Luc.Asin.1; “εἰς Ἐκβάτανα ἀποθανεῖν” Ael.VH7.8; “εἰς ἅπασαν τὴν γῆν” Suid. s.v. Καλλίμαχος: generally, “τοὔνομα εἰς τὴν Ἑλλάδα, φασίν, Ἱππομιγὴς δύναται” Ael.VH9.16.

3. with Verbs of saying or speaking, &#949;&#7984;&#962; relates to the persons to or before whom one speaks, &#949;&#7984;&#960;&#949;&#8150;&#957; &#7952;&#962; &#960;&#940;&#957;&#964;&#945;&#962;, &#7952;&#962; &#960;&#940;&#957;&#964;&#945;&#962; &#945;&#8020;&#948;&#945;, Hdt.8.26, S.OT93; &#8220;&#955;&#941;&#947;&#949;&#953;&#957; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#964;&#8056; &#956;&#941;&#963;&#959;&#957; &#964;&#8182;&#957; &#964;&#945;&#958;&#953;&#940;&#961;&#967;&#969;&#957;&#8221; X.Cyr. 3.3.7; &#8220;&#945;&#7985; &#7952;&#962; &#964;&#8056; &#966;&#945;&#957;&#949;&#961;&#8056;&#957; &#955;&#949;&#947;&#972;&#956;&#949;&#957;&#945;&#953; &#945;&#7984;&#964;&#943;&#945;&#953;&#8221; Th.1.23: with other Verbs, &#8220;&#949;&#7984;&#962; &#964;&#959;&#8058;&#962; &#7965;&#955;&#955;&#951;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#963;&#945;&#965;&#964;&#8056;&#957; &#963;&#959;&#966;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#8052;&#957; &#960;&#945;&#961;&#941;&#967;&#969;&#957;&#8221; Pl.Prt.312a; &#8220;&#954;&#945;&#955;&#8056;&#957; &#7952;&#962; &#964;&#959;&#8058;&#962; &#7965;&#955;&#955;&#951;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#964;&#8056; &#7936;&#947;&#974;&#957;&#953;&#963;&#956;&#945; &#966;&#945;&#957;&#949;&#8150;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953;&#8221; Th.7.56; &#7952;&#960;&#945;&#967;&#952;&#8052;&#962; <*>&#957; &#7952;&#962; &#964;&#959;&#8058;&#962; &#964;&#959;&#955;&#955;&#959;&#973;&#962; Id.6.54; &#8220;&#963;&#964;&#961;&#945;&#964;&#953;&#8048;&#957; &#7952;&#960;&#945;&#947;&#947;&#941;&#955;&#955;&#969;&#957; &#7952;&#962; &#964;&#959;&#8058;&#962; &#958;&#965;&#956;&#956;&#940;&#967;&#959;&#965;&#962;&#8221; Id.7.17; &#8220;&#948;&#953;&#945;&#946;&#949;&#946;&#955;&#8134;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953; &#949;&#7988;&#962; &#964;&#953;&#957;&#945;&#8221; Pl.R.539c.

4. elliptical usages,

a. after Verbs which have no sense of motion to or into a place, &#964;&#8052;&#957; &#960;&#972;&#955;&#953;&#957; &#7952;&#958;&#941;&#955;&#953;&#960;&#959;&#957; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#967;&#969;&#961;&#943;&#959;&#957; &#8000;&#967;&#965;&#961;&#972;&#957; they quitted the city for a strong position, i.e. to seek a strong position, X.An.1.2.24; &#947;&#961;&#940;&#956;&#956;&#945;&#964;&#945; &#7953;&#940;&#955;&#969;&#963;&#945;&#957; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7944;&#952;&#942;&#957;&#945;&#962; letters were captured [and sent] to Athens, Id.HG1.1.23, cf. Pl.R. 468a; &#8220;&#7936;&#957;&#943;&#963;&#964;&#945;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953; &#7952;&#962; &#7948;&#961;&#947;&#959;&#962;&#8221; E.Heracl.59, cf. Pl.Phd.116a.

b. participles signifying motion are freq. omitted with &#949;&#7984;&#962;, &#964;&#959;&#8150;&#962; &#963;&#964;&#961;&#945;&#964;&#951;&#947;&#959;&#8150;&#962; &#964;&#959;&#8150;&#962; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#931;&#953;&#954;&#949;&#955;&#943;&#945;&#957; (sc. &#7936;&#960;&#959;&#948;&#949;&#953;&#967;&#952;&#949;&#8150;&#963;&#953;&#957;) And.1.11, etc.

c. c. gen., mostly of proper names, as &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7944;&#912;&#948;&#945;&#959;, Att. &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7949;&#953;&#948;&#959;&#965; [&#948;&#972;&#956;&#959;&#965;&#962;], Il.21.48; &#7952;&#962; &#7944;&#952;&#951;&#957;&#945;&#943;&#951;&#962; [&#7985;&#949;&#961;&#972;&#957;] to the temple of Athena, 6.379; &#7952;&#962; &#928;&#961;&#953;&#940;&#956;&#959;&#953;&#959; [&#959;&#7990;&#954;&#959;&#957;] 24.160, cf. 309; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#913;&#7984;&#947;&#973;&#960;&#964;&#959;&#953;&#959; [&#8165;&#972;&#959;&#957;] Od.4.581; &#8220;&#7952;&#962; &#964;&#959;&#8166; &#922;&#955;&#949;&#959;&#956;&#941;&#957;&#949;&#959;&#962;&#8221; Hdt.5.51; &#8220;&#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7944;&#963;&#954;&#955;&#951;&#960;&#953;&#959;&#8166;&#8221; Ar.Pl.411; &#8220;&#7952;&#960;&#8054; &#948;&#949;&#8150;&#960;&#957;&#959;&#957; [&#7984;&#941;&#957;&#945;&#953;] &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7944;&#947;&#940;&#952;&#969;&#957;&#959;&#962;&#8221; Pl.Smp. 174a: with Appellatives, &#7936;&#957;&#948;&#961;&#8056;&#962; &#7952;&#962; &#7936;&#966;&#957;&#949;&#953;&#959;&#8166; to a rich man's house, Il.24.482; &#8220;&#7952;&#962; &#960;&#945;&#964;&#961;&#972;&#962;&#8221; Od.2.195; &#960;&#941;&#956;&#960;&#949;&#953;&#957; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#948;&#953;&#948;&#945;&#963;&#954;&#940;&#955;&#969;&#957; send to school, X.Lac.2.1; &#8220;&#949;&#7984;&#962; &#948;. &#966;&#959;&#953;&#964;&#8118;&#957;&#8221; Pl.Prt.326c; &#7952;&#962; &#963;&#949;&#969;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#8166;, &#7953;&#969;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#8166;, Hdt.1.108, 9.108, etc.

II. OF TIME,

1. to denote a certain point or limit of time, up to, until, &#8220;&#7952;&#962; &#7968;&#8182;&#8221; Od.11.375; &#7952;&#962; &#7968;&#941;&#955;&#953;&#959;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#948;&#973;&#957;&#964;&#945; till sunset, 9.161 (but also, towards or near sunset, 3.138); &#8220;&#7952;&#954; &#957;&#949;&#972;&#964;&#951;&#964;&#959;&#962; &#7952;&#962; &#947;&#8134;&#961;&#945;&#962;&#8221; Il.14.86; &#8220;&#7952;&#954; &#960;&#945;&#953;&#948;&#8056;&#962; &#7952;&#962; &#947;&#8134;&#961;&#945;&#962;&#8221; Aeschin.1.180; &#7952;&#962; &#7952;&#956;&#941; up to my time, Hdt.1.92, al.: with Advbs., &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#8005;&#964;&#949; (cf. &#7956;&#962; &#964;&#949;) against the time when . . , Od.2.99; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#960;&#972;&#964;&#949;; until when ? how long ? S.Aj.1185 (lyr., cf. &#8220;&#949;&#7984;&#963;&#972;&#954;&#7952;; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#8001;&#960;&#972;&#964;&#949;&#8221; Aeschin.3.99; &#7952;&#962; &#964;&#943;; = &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#960;&#972;&#964;&#949;; Il.5.465; &#7952;&#962; &#8005; until, Hdt.1.93, etc.; &#8220;&#7952;&#962; &#959;&#8023;&#8221; Id.1.67, 3.31, etc.; &#8220;&#7952;&#962; &#964;&#972;&#948;&#949;&#8221; Id.7.29, etc.

2. to determine a period, &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7952;&#957;&#953;&#945;&#965;&#964;&#972;&#957; for a year, i.e. a whole year,
Il.19.32, Od.4.526; within the year, ib.86 (cf. &#8220;&#7952;&#962; &#7952;&#957;&#943;&#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#957;&#8221; Alc.Supp.8.12); &#8220;&#949;&#7984;&#962; &#8037;&#961;&#945;&#962;&#8221; Od.9.135; &#7952;&#962; &#952;&#941;&#961;&#959;&#962; &#7970; &#7952;&#962; &#8000;&#960;&#974;&#961;&#951;&#957; for the summer, i.e. throughout it, 14.384; &#7969; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7952;&#957;&#953;&#945;&#965;&#964;&#8056;&#957; &#954;&#949;&#953;&#956;&#941;&#957;&#951; &#948;&#945;&#960;&#940;&#957;&#951; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#964;&#8056;&#957; &#956;&#8134;&#957;&#945; &#948;&#945;&#960;&#945;&#957;&#8118;&#964;&#945;&#953; the expenditure for a year is expended in the month, X.Oec.7.36; &#8220;&#956;&#953;&#963;&#952;&#959;&#948;&#959;&#964;&#949;&#8150;&#957; &#964;&#953;&#957;&#8048;&#962; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7955;&#958; &#956;&#8134;&#957;&#945;&#962;&#8221; D.S.19.15; &#8220;&#967;&#959;&#943;&#957;&#953;&#954;&#945; &#954;&#961;&#953;&#952;&#8182;&#957; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#964;&#941;&#963;&#963;&#945;&#961;&#945;&#962; &#7969;&#956;&#941;&#961;&#945;&#962; &#948;&#953;&#949;&#956;&#941;&#964;&#961;&#949;&#953;&#8221; Posidon. 36J.; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7953;&#963;&#960;&#941;&#961;&#945;&#957; &#7973;&#954;&#949;&#953;&#957; to come at even, Ar.Pl.998; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#964;&#961;&#943;&#964;&#951;&#957; &#7969;&#956;&#941;&#961;&#945;&#957; or &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#964;&#961;&#943;&#964;&#951;&#957; alone, on the third day, in two days, Pl.Hp.Ma.286b, X.Cyr.5.3.27; &#8220;&#7973;&#954;&#949;&#953;&#957; &#7952;&#962; &#964;&#8052;&#957; &#8017;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#961;&#945;&#943;&#945;&#957;&#8221; Id.An.2.3.25; &#8220;&#7973;&#954;&#949;&#953;&#957; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#964;&#8056; &#7956;&#945;&#961;&#8221; Hell.Oxy.17.4; &#7952;&#962; &#964;&#941;&#955;&#959;&#962; at last, Hdt.3.40; &#7952;&#962; &#954;&#945;&#953;&#961;&#972;&#957; in season, Id.4.139; &#959;&#8016;&#954; &#7952;&#962; &#7936;&#957;&#945;&#946;&#959;&#955;&#940;&#962;, &#7936;&#956;&#946;&#959;&#955;&#940;&#962;, with no delay, Id.8.21, E.Heracl.270, etc.; &#7952;&#962; &#964;&#972;&#964;&#949; at this time, v.l. in Od.7.317 (but &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#964;&#972;&#964;&#949; at that time (in the fut.), D.14.24, Pl.Lg.830b); &#7952;&#962; &#8021;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#961;&#959;&#957; or &#964;&#8056; &#8021;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#961;&#959;&#957;, Od.12.126, Th.2.20: with Advbs., &#8220;&#7952;&#962; &#945;&#8020;&#961;&#953;&#959;&#957;&#8221; Il.8.538, Pl. Lg.858b; &#8220;&#7956;&#962; &#960;&#949;&#961; &#8000;&#960;&#943;&#963;&#963;&#969;&#8221; Od.20.199; &#8220;&#7952;&#962; &#945;&#8022;&#952;&#953;&#962;&#8221; Th.4.63 (v. &#949;&#7984;&#963;&#945;&#8166;&#952;&#953;&#962;&#65288;; &#7952;&#962; &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#943;&#954;&#945; &#956;&#940;&#955;' Ar.Pax 367; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7956;&#960;&#949;&#953;&#964;&#945; (v. &#949;&#7984;&#963;&#941;&#960;&#949;&#953;&#964;&#945;&#65288;; &#7952;&#962; &#964;&#8056; &#7956;., Th.2.64; &#8220;&#7952;&#962; &#8000;&#968;&#941;&#8221; Id.8.23; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7941;&#960;&#945;&#958;, v. &#949;&#7984;&#963;&#940;&#960;&#945;&#958;; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7956;&#964;&#953;, v. &#949;&#7984;&#963;&#941;&#964;&#953;.

III. to express MEASURE OR LIMIT,

without reference to Time, &#7952;&#962; &#948;&#943;&#963;&#954;&#959;&#965;&#961;&#945; &#955;&#941;&#955;&#949;&#953;&#960;&#964;&#959; was left behind as far as a quoit's throw, Il.23.523; &#7952;&#962; &#948;&#961;&#945;&#967;&#956;&#8052;&#957; &#948;&#953;&#941;&#948;&#969;&#954;&#949; paid them as much as a drachma, Th.8.29; &#8220;&#7985;&#956;&#945;&#964;&#953;&#963;&#956;&#8056;&#957; &#950;&#951;&#964;&#8134;&#963;&#945;&#953; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#948;&#973;&#959; &#964;&#940;&#955;&#945;&#957;&#964;&#945;&#8221; Thphr.Char.23.8; so &#7952;&#962; &#964;&#8048; &#956;&#940;&#955;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#945; to the greatest degree, Hdt.1.20, etc.; &#8220;&#7952;&#962; &#964;&#959;&#963;&#959;&#8166;&#964;&#959; &#964;&#973;&#967;&#951;&#962; &#7936;&#960;&#943;&#954;&#949;&#965;&#8221; Id.1.124; &#8220;&#949;&#7984;&#962; &#964;&#959;&#963;&#959;&#8166;&#964;&#959; &#7973;&#954;&#949;&#953;&#957;&#8221; Lys.27.10; &#8220;&#949;&#7984;&#962; &#964;&#959;&#8166;&#964;&#959; &#952;&#961;&#940;&#963;&#959;&#965;&#962; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#7936;&#957;&#945;&#953;&#948;&#949;&#943;&#945;&#962; &#7936;&#966;&#943;&#954;&#949;&#964;&#959;&#8221; D.21.194; &#7952;&#962; &#8005; &#7952;&#956;&#941;&#956;&#957;&#951;&#957;&#964;&#959; so far as they remembered, Th.5.66; &#8220;&#7952;&#962; &#964;&#8056; &#7956;&#963;&#967;&#945;&#964;&#959;&#957;&#8221; Hdt.7.229, etc.; &#8220;&#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7941;&#955;&#953;&#962;&#8221; Theoc.25.17.

2. freq. with Numerals, &#8220;&#7952;&#962; &#964;&#961;&#953;&#945;&#954;&#940;&#948;&#945;&#962; &#948;&#941;&#954;&#945; &#957;&#945;&#8182;&#957;&#8221; A.Pers.339; &#957;&#945;&#8166;&#962; &#7952;&#962; &#964;&#8048;&#962; &#964;&#949;&#964;&#961;&#945;&#954;&#959;&#963;&#943;&#945;&#962;, &#948;&#953;&#945;&#954;&#959;&#963;&#943;&#945;&#962;, to the number of 400, etc., Th.1.74, 100, etc.; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7957;&#957;&#945;, &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#948;&#973;&#959;, &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#964;&#941;&#963;&#963;&#945;&#961;&#945;&#962;, one, two, four deep, X.Cyr.2.3.21; but &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#964;&#941;&#963;&#963;&#945;&#961;&#945;&#962; four abreast, Aen.Tact.40.6: with Advbs., &#7952;&#962; &#964;&#961;&#943;&#962; or &#7952;&#963;&#964;&#961;&#943;&#962; thrice, Pi.O.2.68, Hdt.1.86; of round numbers, about, X.An.1.1.10.
3. distributive, &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#966;&#965;&#955;&#940;&#962; by tribes, LXX 1 Ki.10.21, cf. 2 Ki.18.4.

IV. to express RELATION, towards, in regard to, &#8220;&#7952;&#958;&#945;&#956;&#945;&#961;&#964;&#949;&#8150;&#957; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#952;&#949;&#959;&#973;&#962;&#8221; A.Pr.945, etc.; &#7937;&#956;&#940;&#961;&#964;&#951;&#956;&#945; &#949;&#7988;&#962; &#964;&#953;&#957;&#945;, &#945;&#7984;&#964;&#943;&#945;&#953; &#7952;&#962; &#7936;&#955;&#955;&#942;&#955;&#959;&#965;&#962;, Isoc.8.96, Th.1.66; &#8220;&#8004;&#957;&#949;&#953;&#948;&#959;&#962; &#8000;&#957;&#949;&#953;&#948;&#943;&#950;&#949;&#953;&#957; &#949;&#7988;&#962; &#964;&#953;&#957;&#945;&#8221; S.Ph.522; &#8220;&#7956;&#967;&#952;&#961;&#951; &#7956;&#963;&#964;&#953;&#957;&#945;&#8221; Hdt.6.65; &#8220;&#966;&#953;&#955;&#943;&#945; &#7952;&#962; &#7936;&#956;&#966;&#959;&#964;&#941;&#961;&#959;&#965;&#962;&#8221; Th.2.9; &#955;&#941;&#947;&#949;&#953;&#957; &#7952;&#962; . . Hdt.1.86; &#8220;&#947;&#957;&#974;&#956;&#951; &#7936;&#960;&#959;&#948;&#949;&#967;&#952;&#949;&#8150;&#963;&#945; &#7952;&#962; &#964;&#8052;&#957; &#947;&#941;&#966;&#965;&#961;&#945;&#957;&#8221; Id.4.98; &#8220;&#7969; &#7952;&#962; &#947;&#8134;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#952;&#940;&#955;&#945;&#963;&#963;&#945;&#957; &#7936;&#961;&#967;&#942;&#8221; Th.8.46.

b. of the subject of a work, esp. in titles, e.g. &#8220;&#964;&#8048; &#7952;&#962; &#7944;&#960;&#959;&#955;&#955;&#974;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;&#8221; Philostr. VA; of the object of a dedication, as in titles of hymns, &#7952;&#960;&#953;&#957;&#943;&#954;&#953;&#945;, etc.

2. in regard to, &#8220;&#960;&#961;&#8182;&#964;&#959;&#962; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#949;&#8016;&#968;&#965;&#967;&#943;&#945;&#957;&#8221; A.Pers.326; &#8220;&#963;&#954;&#974;&#960;&#964;&#949;&#953;&#957; &#7952;&#962; &#964;&#8048; &#8165;&#940;&#954;&#953;&#945;&#8221; Ar.Pax740, cf. Eq.90; &#8220;&#948;&#953;&#945;&#946;&#940;&#955;&#955;&#949;&#953;&#957; &#964;&#953;&#957;&#8048; &#7956;&#962; &#964;&#953;&#8221; Th.8.88; &#8220;&#945;&#7984;&#964;&#943;&#945; &#7952;&#960;&#953;&#966;&#949;&#961;&#959;&#956;&#941;&#957;&#951; &#7952;&#962; &#956;&#945;&#955;&#945;&#954;&#943;&#945;&#957;&#8221; Id.5.75; &#8220;&#956;&#941;&#956;&#966;&#949;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#966;&#953;&#955;&#943;&#945;&#957;&#8221; X.An.2.6.30; &#8220;&#949;&#7984;&#962; &#964;&#8048; &#960;&#959;&#955;&#949;&#956;&#953;&#954;&#8048; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#966;&#961;&#959;&#957;&#949;&#8150;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953;&#8221; Id.HG7.4.30; &#8220;&#960;&#972;&#955;&#949;&#969;&#962; &#949;&#8016;&#948;&#959;&#954;&#953;&#956;&#969;&#964;&#940;&#964;&#951;&#962; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#963;&#959;&#966;&#943;&#945;&#957;&#8221; Pl.Ap.29d; in respect of, &#8220;&#949;&#8016;&#964;&#965;&#967;&#949;&#8150;&#957; &#7952;&#962; &#964;&#941;&#954;&#957;&#945;&#8221; E.Or.542, cf. Pl.Ap.35b, etc.; &#8220;&#949;&#7984;&#962; &#967;&#961;&#942;&#956;&#945;&#964;&#945; &#950;&#951;&#956;&#953;&#959;&#8166;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953;&#8221; Id.Lg.774b, cf. D.22.55; &#7952;&#962; &#964;&#8048; &#7940;&#955;&#955;&#945; Th.I.I; &#8220;&#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7940;&#960;&#945;&#957;&#964;&#945;&#8221; S.Tr.489; &#8220;&#7952;&#962; &#964;&#8048; &#960;&#940;&#957;&#952;&#8125; &#8001;&#956;&#8182;&#962;&#8221; A.Pr.736; &#8220;&#949;&#7984;&#962; &#956;&#8050;&#957; &#964;&#945;&#8166;&#964;&#945;&#8221; Pl.Ly.210a; &#964;&#972; &#947;&#8125; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7953;&#945;&#965;&#964;&#972;&#957;, &#964;&#8056; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7952;&#956;&#941;, S.OT706, E. IT691, cf. S.Ichn.346; &#8220;&#7952;&#962; &#8000;&#955;&#943;&#947;&#959;&#965;&#962; &#956;&#8118;&#955;&#955;&#959;&#957; &#964;&#8048;&#962; &#7936;&#961;&#967;&#8048;&#962; &#960;&#959;&#953;&#949;&#8150;&#957;&#8221; Th.8.53; &#8220;&#7952;&#962; &#960;&#955;&#949;&#943;&#959;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#959;&#7984;&#954;&#949;&#8150;&#957;&#8221; Id.2.37; for &#964;&#949;&#955;&#949;&#8150;&#957; &#7952;&#962; &#7965;&#955;&#955;&#951;&#957;&#945;&#962;, &#914;&#959;&#953;&#969;&#964;&#959;&#973;&#962;, &#7940;&#957;&#948;&#961;&#945;&#962;, etc., v. &#964;&#949;&#955;&#941;&#969;.
3. of Manner, &#8220;&#7952;&#962; &#964;&#8056;&#957; &#957;&#8166;&#957; &#964;&#961;&#972;&#960;&#959;&#957;&#8221; Id.1.6; &#8220;&#964;&#943;&#952;&#949;&#956;&#949;&#957; &#964;&#7942;&#955;&#955;&#945; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#964;&#8056;&#957; &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#8056;&#957; &#955;&#972;&#947;&#959;&#957;;&#8221; Pl.R.353d; &#8220;&#7952;&#962; &#7955;&#957; &#956;&#941;&#955;&#959;&#962;&#8221; Theoc.18.7: freq. periphr. for Advbs., &#7952;&#962; &#954;&#959;&#953;&#957;&#8056;&#957; &#966;&#961;&#940;&#950;&#949;&#953;&#957;, &#955;&#941;&#947;&#949;&#953;&#957;, A.Pr.844, Eu.408; &#7952;&#962; &#964;&#8056; &#960;&#8118;&#957;, = &#960;&#940;&#957;&#964;&#969;&#962;, Id.Ag.682(lyr.); &#7952;&#962; &#964;&#940;&#967;&#959;&#962;, = &#964;&#945;&#967;&#941;&#969;&#962;, Ar.Ach.686; &#7952;&#962; &#949;&#8016;&#964;&#941;&#955;&#949;&#953;&#945;&#957;, = &#949;&#8016;&#964;&#949;&#955;&#8182;&#962;, Id.Av.805; &#8220;&#7952;&#962; &#964;&#7936;&#961;&#967;&#945;&#8150;&#959;&#957;&#8221; Id.Nu.593; &#8220;&#949;&#7984;&#962; &#954;&#945;&#955;&#972;&#957;&#8221; S. OT78, cf. Pl.Phd.76e; &#8220;&#7952;&#962; &#948;&#941;&#959;&#957; &#947;&#949;&#947;&#959;&#957;&#941;&#957;&#945;&#953;&#8221; Hdt.1.119, cf. S.OT1416, and v. &#948;&#941;&#959;&#957;.
V. of an end or limit, &#7956;&#961;&#967;&#949;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953;, &#964;&#949;&#955;&#949;&#965;&#964;&#8118;&#957;, &#955;&#942;&#947;&#949;&#953;&#957; &#7952;&#962;.., to end in.., Hdt.1.120,3.125,4.39, etc.; &#8220;&#7952;&#962; &#7953;&#946;&#948;&#959;&#956;&#942;&#954;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#945; &#7956;&#964;&#949;&#945; &#959;&#965;,&#8128;&#961;&#959;&#957; &#7936;&#957;&#952;&#961;&#974;&#960;&#8179; &#960;&#961;&#959;&#964;&#943;&#952;&#951;&#956;&#953;&#8221; Id.1.32; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#958;&#945;&#943;&#957;&#949;&#953;&#957; &#7952;&#962; &#966;&#959;&#953;&#957;&#953;&#954;&#943;&#948;&#945; to cut into red rags, Ar.Ach.320 (troch.); &#8220;&#963;&#964;&#961;&#941;&#966;&#949;&#953;&#957; &#964;&#953; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#945;&#7991;&#956;&#945;&#8221; Apoc.11.6; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7940;&#957;&#948;&#961;&#945;&#962; &#7952;&#954; &#956;&#949;&#953;&#961;&#945;&#954;&#943;&#969;&#957; &#964;&#949;&#955;&#949;&#965;&#964;&#8118;&#957;, &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7940;&#957;&#948;&#961;&#945; &#947;&#949;&#957;&#949;&#953;&#8118;&#957;, Pl.Tht.173b, Theoc.14.28; &#8220;&#7952;&#954;&#964;&#961;&#941;&#966;&#949;&#953;&#957; &#964;&#8056; &#963;&#960;&#941;&#961;&#956;&#945; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#954;&#945;&#961;&#960;&#972;&#957;&#8221; X.Oec.17.10: so with &#949;&#7990;&#957;&#945;&#953; or &#947;&#943;&#947;&#957;&#959;&#956;&#945;&#953; to form a predicate, &#8220;&#7956;&#963;&#964;&#945;&#953; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7956;&#952;&#957;&#951;&#8221; LXXGe.17.16; &#7952;&#947;&#949;&#957;&#942;&#952;&#951; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#947;&#965;&#957;&#945;&#8150;&#954;&#945; ib.20.12; &#960;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#8056;&#962; (sc.&#7974;&#957;) &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#960;&#961;&#959;&#966;&#942;&#964;&#951;&#957; ib.IKi.3.20; &#8220;&#7952;&#947;&#941;&#957;&#949;&#964;&#959; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#948;&#941;&#957;&#948;&#961;&#959;&#957;&#8221; Ev.Luc.13.19,al.

2. of Purpose or Object, &#949;&#7984;&#960;&#949;&#8150;&#957; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7936;&#947;&#945;&#952;&#972;&#957;, &#960;&#949;&#943;&#963;&#949;&#964;&#945;&#953; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7936;&#947;&#945;&#952;&#972;&#957;, for good, for his good, Il.9.102,11.789; &#8220;&#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7936;&#947;&#945;&#952;&#8048; &#956;&#965;&#952;&#949;&#8150;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953;&#8221; 23.305; &#8220;&#7952;&#962; &#960;&#972;&#955;&#949;&#956;&#959;&#957; &#952;&#969;&#961;&#942;&#958;&#959;&#956;&#945;&#953;&#8221; 8.376, cf. Hdt.7.29, etc.; &#7952;&#962; &#966;&#972;&#946;&#959;&#957; to cause fear, Il.15.310; &#8220;&#7952;&#962; &#8017;&#960;&#959;&#948;&#942;&#956;&#945;&#964;&#945; &#948;&#949;&#948;&#972;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953;&#8221; Hdt.2.98; &#8220;&#954;&#972;&#963;&#956;&#959;&#962; &#8001; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7953;&#959;&#961;&#964;&#940;&#962;&#8221; X.Oec.9.6; &#8220;&#7952;&#960;&#953;&#964;&#951;&#948;&#949;&#972;&#964;&#945;&#964;&#959;&#962;, &#949;&#8016;&#960;&#961;&#949;&#960;&#942;&#962;, &#7956;&#962; &#964;&#953;&#8221; Hdt.1.115,2.116; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#954;&#940;&#955;&#955;&#959;&#962; &#950;&#8134;&#957; to live for show, X.Cyr.8.1.33, cf. Ages. 9.1; &#8220;&#7952;&#962; &#948;&#945;&#943;&#964;&#951;&#957; &#7952;&#954;&#940;&#955;&#949;&#963;&#963;&#949;&#8221; Call.Aet.1.1.5; &#8220;&#949;&#7984;&#962; &#954;&#941;&#961;&#948;&#959;&#962; &#964;&#953; &#948;&#961;&#8118;&#957;&#8221; S.Ph.III; &#8220;&#960;&#940;&#963;&#945;&#962; &#966;&#969;&#957;&#8048;&#962; &#7985;&#941;&#957;&#964;&#969;&#957; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7936;&#960;&#972;&#966;&#965;&#958;&#953;&#957;&#8221; Ar.V.562; &#8220;&#949;&#7984;&#962; &#947;&#961;&#940;&#956;&#956;&#945;&#964;&#945; &#960;&#945;&#953;&#948;&#8054; &#948;&#949;&#954;&#949;&#964;&#949;&#8150; &#7952;&#957;&#953;&#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#8054; &#964;&#961;&#949;&#8150;&#962;&#8221; Pl.Lg.809e; &#949;&#7984;&#962; &#964;&#8056; &#960;&#961;&#8118;&#947;&#956;&#945; &#949;&#7990;&#957;&#945;&#953; to be pertinent, to the purpose, D.36.54; freq. of expenditure on an object, IG22.102.11, 116.41, al.; &#8220;&#7952;&#962; &#964;&#8056; &#948;&#941;&#959;&#957;&#8221; Ar.Nu.859, etc.; &#7952;&#962; &#948;&#8119;&#948;&#945; ib.612.

B. POSITION: &#949;&#7984;&#962; is sts. parted from its acc. by several words, &#8220;&#949;&#7984;&#962; &#7936;&#956;&#966;&#959;&#964;&#941;&#961;&#969; &#916;&#953;&#959;&#956;&#942;&#948;&#949;&#959;&#962; &#7941;&#961;&#956;&#945;&#964;&#945; &#946;&#942;&#964;&#951;&#957;&#8221; Il.8.115; &#8220;&#949;&#7984;&#962; &#948;&#8050; &#956;&#959;&#957;&#940;&#961;&#967;&#959;&#965; &#948;&#8134;&#956;&#959;&#962; &#7936;&#970;&#948;&#961;&#943;&#8131; &#948;&#959;&#965;&#955;&#959;&#963;&#973;&#957;&#951;&#957; &#7956;&#960;&#949;&#963;&#949;&#957;&#8221; Sol.9: seldom (only in Poets) put after its case, Il.15.59, Od.3.137,15.541, S.OC126(lyr.): after an Adv., &#8220;&#945;&#8020;&#961;&#953;&#959;&#957; &#7956;&#962;: &#964;&#8134;&#956;&#959;&#962; &#948;&#8050;..&#8221; Od.7.318.

Source

Only once is "&#949;&#7984;&#962;" used in the sense of "resulting in".

"And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?" -Mt. 19:5 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Hammster

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3 For by the grace given to me, I tell everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he should think. (At this point we know that Paul is addressing only REAL believers)

Instead, think sensibly, as God has distributed a measure of faith to each one.

This faith that was given in MEASURE is given for the purpose of the believer not to think of themselves higher than they should but to think sensibly. Now, to apply this measured faith as believing faith is a sure move in an exercise of eisegesis. It cannot be said of this verse that it has any connection to believing faith. I have maintained that there isn't one single verse in God's word that demonstrates remotely that saving faith is a gift for the purpose of believing unto salvation, but that man's faith comes form man himself by virtue of the fact that he is created in the image of God. Calvinism is completely wrong and many Arminian have bought into this tragic misinterpretation of God's word.


4 Now as we have many parts in one body, and all the parts do not have the same function, 5 in the same way we who are many are one body in Christ and individually members of one another. 6 According to the grace given to us, we have different gifts:

If prophecy, use it according to the standard of one’s faith;
7 if service, in service; if teaching, in teaching;
8 if exhorting, in exhortation; giving, with generosity; leading, with diligence; showing mercy, with cheerfulness.
Romans 12:3-8 (HCSB)

The measure of faith in this context is related to the gifts, not to regeneration. Thinking higher than one should is tied to ones gift not to salvation.
So you assert that God DOESN'T give faith to unbelievers because they already have faith, but He DOES give faith to believers because they don't have enough faith? Okie dokie.
 
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For the reader that sees a list of material that is foreign you look and shake your head. Lets simplify the issue, of which and even in this case, will not satisfy anyone that is predisposed to disagree with facts.


The word at this moment under discussion is the Greek Word EIS. According to Dana and Mantey page 103 EIS is used more than 1700 times. D and A also state it is always used with the Accusative Case.


The basic reason for its use carries these three ideas, “the end, or direction, or extent of motion or action.” All three of these ideas support the obvious conclusion which is in this case that the person, in order to have eternal live, must confess and believe resulting in righteousness and salvation.


Here is the online dictionary dot com meaning of accusative case for easy reference:

Accusitive – adjective . a. (in certain inflected languages, as Latin, Greek, or Russian) noting a case whose distinctive function is to indicate the direct object of a verb or the object of certain prepositions.

OK, now reflect back to the basic universal meaning, use of EIS , “the end, or direction, or extent of motion or action.” With this TRUTH or FACTS reasonable people would conclude that the result of what is taking place is the object of the preposition. Anyone that has been to high school can grasp this. You don’t have to have studied Greek Or Latin Or any Foreign language to grasp this. However, as you well know, one cannot make someone believe facts because presuppositions and agendas get in the way. One can deny these facts but in the end the fact remains that a person must confess and believe if he or she is to have righteousness and salvation according to Romans 10:10.
 
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So you assert that God DOESN'T give faith to unbelievers because they already have faith, but He DOES give faith to believers because they don't have enough faith? Okie dokie.

You are right they are separate (1) believing faith is an ability all mankind has due to the fact they are created in the image of God. (2) The measure of faith in Romans 12 is not believing faith. (Believing faith comes by hearing the Gospel and the capacity to have faith is the result of being in the image of God. The gift is salvation not ones faith)

The question here is not that I believe this or that but what does the text say. Good try to divert attention away from the real meaning of the text Romans 12:3. To use Romans 12:3 as a salvation passage is, to me, gross misuse of the text, it is eisegesis, pure and simple.

eis·e·ge·sis –noun, plural -an interpretation, esp. of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like, rather than the meaning of the text.

From Dictionary Dot Com

This "measure" of faith" that is given to believers is directly linked to the gifts in the text.

Now you are one of my Christian brothers who make use of questions a big buch, this is your M.O. and it is a good way to do two things, (1) get to the bottom of something or (2) avoid directly answer a request from someone else.

Here is a question for you and I ask you to not answer it with a question just answer Yes or No”

Is the teaching of the measure of faith in Romans Chapter 12, in context, a measure of faith in the function of the gifts?

Simple answer Yes or No

Second question: Do you deny that this is the case that the measure of faith in Romans 12 is not speaking to saving faith but a measure of faith in the oporation of the gifts?

Yes I deny that it in context relates to the gifts

NO I do not deny that it relates to the gifts
 
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themuzicman

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Now I never said any such thing.

What I said was believing does not "result in" righteousness.

OK, your theology stands in opposition to this passage.

Both righteousness and justification come from the same Greek word.

"eiV " on the other hand, has many meanings, but not one of them speaks of "eiV" as "result".the same Greek word is used in Acts 2:38:

"petroV de proV autouV, metanohsate, [fhsin,] kai baptisqhtw ekastoV umwn epi tw onomati ihsou cristou eiV afesin twn amartiwn umwn, kai lhmyesqe thn dwrean tou agiou pneumatoV:" -Acts 2:38 (GNT)

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." -Acts 2:38 (KJV)

There is the word "eiV" again.

It is also used when Jesus speaks of Jonah preaching in Nineveh:

"andreV nineuitai anasthsontai en th krisei meta thV geneaV tauthV kai katakrinousin authn: oti metenohsan eiV to khrugma iwna, kai idou pleion iwna wde." -Mt. 12:41 (GNT)

"The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." -Mt. 12:41 (KJV)

In the Baptist faith, people do not get baptized to have their sins removed, yet that is the context in which "eiV" is used.

The same rule would apply here in Mt. 12:41.

Did the people of Nineveh repent to produce the "result" of Jonah preaching?

The people of Nineveh repented "because of" the preaching of Jonah.
You are committing what is known as the "whole word fallacy." You're assuming that the word always means the same thing every time it is used. That's simply not the case.

If you look at the literal translation, including the words and forms used, one must complete the translation of "For the heart has believed into justification".

The heart is the actor, justification the indirect object. "Because of" doesn't seem to be a valid option, here.

Additionally, the phrase in question is "oti metenohsan eiV to khrugma iwna"

The "oti" is the because. "Eis" is actually best rendered "as a result of", because the literal translation is:

"because they repented 'into' (as a result of) the preaching of Jonah."

You should stay out of the Greek if you haven't been trained in it.

Likewise, we are baptized "because of" the remission of sin.
Different context, different usage.

And we are declared "righteous" and "justified" because of a decree of God, not "for" faith, not on "account of" faith, and not as a "result" of faith.

WE are declared righteous and justified because of what faith reaches out and grasps hold of.
But you are determining this by your theology and not by translation and exegesis. Our theology should be informed by exegesis, rather than having theology inform exegesis.

The Doctrine of Justification, Restated and Reviewed, by Me.

Righteousness is provided by Jesus, God declares it, and faith receives it.

Faith does not result in righteousness.

You may think I'm forcing words to be interpreted one way only, but in fact, I have never said such a thing.

But at least I am not forcing the word to mean something its not.

God Bless

Till all are one.
Again, using doctrine to inform exegesis is simply invalid.
 
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Hammster

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You are right they are separate (1) believing faith is an ability all mankind has due to the fact they are created in the image of God. (2) The measure of faith in Romans 12 is not believing faith. (Believing faith comes by hearing the Gospel and the capacity to have faith is the result of being in the image of God. The gift is salvation not ones faith)

The question here is not that I believe this or that but what does the text say. Good try to divert attention away from the real meaning of the text Romans 12:3. To use Romans 12:3 as a salvation passage is, to me, gross misuse of the text, it is eisegesis, pure and simple.

eis·e·ge·sis –noun, plural -an interpretation, esp. of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like, rather than the meaning of the text.

From Dictionary Dot Com

This "measure" of faith" that is given to believers is directly linked to the gifts in the text.

Now you are one of my Christian brothers who make use of questions a big buch, this is your M.O. and it is a good way to do two things, (1) get to the bottom of something or (2) avoid directly answer a request from someone else.

Here is a question for you and I ask you to not answer it with a question just answer Yes or No”

Is the teaching of the measure of faith in Romans Chapter 12, in context, a measure of faith in the function of the gifts?

Simple answer Yes or No

Second question: Do you deny that this is the case that the measure of faith in Romans 12 is not speaking to saving faith but a measure of faith in the oporation of the gifts?

Yes I deny that it in context relates to the gifts

NO I do not deny that it relates to the gifts
So which of those two faiths come by hearing?
 
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Hammster

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Is the teaching of the measure of faith in Romans Chapter 12, in context, a measure of faith in the function of the gifts?

Simple answer Yes or No

No, the gifts mentioned are by the grace of Hod, not faith.
 
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OK, your theology stands in opposition to this passage.

You are committing what is known as the "whole word fallacy." You're assuming that the word always means the same thing every time it is used. That's simply not the case.

If you look at the literal translation, including the words and forms used, one must complete the translation of "For the heart has believed into justification".

The heart is the actor, justification the indirect object. "Because of" doesn't seem to be a valid option, here.

Additionally, the phrase in question is "oti metenohsan eiV to khrugma iwna"

The "oti" is the because. "Eis" is actually best rendered "as a result of", because the literal translation is:

"because they repented 'into' (as a result of) the preaching of Jonah."

You should stay out of the Greek if you haven't been trained in it.

Different context, different usage.

But you are determining this by your theology and not by translation and exegesis. Our theology should be informed by exegesis, rather than having theology inform exegesis.

Again, using doctrine to inform exegesis is simply invalid.

It is refreshing to have your honesty present and Greek skills demonstrated for clarity of this issue.

Thank You
Benefactor / Easystreet
 
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