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Molinism

AndOne

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Hi Behe. You are correct. Classical Calvinism resolves the dilema with the two separate wills of God, forging a separation between desires and decrees. Nonetheless, Calvin did not pervert the text as DrSteveJ does, who teaches that the "any" of verse 9 is "the elect." Calvin and many other Calvinists possessed the integrity to refrain from trampling on the obvious intentions of the author of 2 Peter. They rightly divide the text and see the "any" as a reference to mankind.

P.S. This "the any is the elect" interpretation is very popular on the internet.

Interesting, I never figured that arminians would agree with the following statement of Calvin's:

For God there stretches forth his hand without a difference to all, but lays hold only of those, to lead them to himself, whom he has chosen before the foundation of the world.

Just curious - would you consider yourself an arminian? If so - do you agree with the above statement?
 
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drstevej

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I wanted to ask if you knew Dr. Wendall G. Johnston former Ex. VP during your time at DTS.

As well in today’s world schools are moving away from class room and are using the internet to teach. Are you suggesting that in today’s world that Instructions like DTS and others that offer on line degrees are less than those offered on Campus? I witness my daughters courses at a reputable school and quite frankly I think I had rather be on Campus because the extent of and format of the on line courses at this institution my daughter is studying is very close to a real class room process. They actually interact with other students and the teacher on the internet. The reading assignments are huge and the type of assignments she has are very demanding and intense.

Let me clarify so I am not misrepresented. I was clarifying that none of my seminary education is online but all was in class. I think in class has some advantages but I think online courses can be quite good and credible. I have friends who teach for Liberty online and these are solid men.

I do know Wendel somewhat. I know his son better. He succeeded me in a pastorate. Wendel came back to DTS after I had graduated.

Now back to Molinism and defining counterfactuals....
 
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nobdysfool

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Merriam-Webster defines counterfactual thusly:

: contrary to fact <counterfactual assumptions>

something that is contrary to fact would be....a falsehood. So Molinism is built on the idea of falsehoods.....

Ver-rrry interesting.....
 
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Easystreet

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You start another thread if that`s what you want. You called, on this thread, the view that the "any" of 2 Peter 3-9 is a reference to mankind, "Arminian exegesis." I quoted Calvin`s commentary to demonstrate beyond doubt that such was his intepretation as well. I also noted that many Calvinists scholars, past and past, ascribe to the same, some even openly shunning the "the any is the elect" nonsense of some of their fellows. I`d post links but don`t have that privilege, but any interested can Google around and find this. You made a statement on this thread and I decisively refuted it on this thread. Done. :)


By the way I enjoyed the post, you gave the facts, and I have maintained for a long time that words and context are redefined to support the "Doctrines of Grace / TULIP".
 
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Easystreet

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Merriam-Webster defines counterfactual thusly:

: contrary to fact <counterfactual assumptions>

something that is contrary to fact would be....a falsehood. So Molinism is built on the idea of falsehoods.....

Ver-rrry interesting.....

I thought I posted the definition. Anyway here is the definition from Keathley's book

Page 35 and 36

"A counter factual is a conditional statement that has two distinctive features: (1) involves a condition that is contrary to fact (for example, "if Kennedy had not been killed in 1963, then he would have won reelection in 1964"); and (2) it expresses a truth that belongs to this actual world. In other words, a counterfactual is a statement that is contrary to fact yet possesses truth content.

We use the truths that counterfactuals contain on a regular basis. Examples are common: "If I don't take out the cookies when the timer goes off, then they will burn"; or "If I run this red light, then I will be involved in an accident." Heeding the truth content causes the events described to not come to pass - the cookies are not burned and no accident occurs - hence the statements typically are contrary to fact (which is why they are called "counter-factual"). So they are true conditionals in the subjunctive mood. And as these examples illustrate, counterfactuals are a part of daily life. The Bible also makes frequent use of counterfactuals."

Please not that I did not say this but I agree and he has PhD not that matters to me, but it does to some. ;)
 
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Easystreet

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I just downloaded the book onto my Kindle - will start reading it tomorrow....

I am jealous. I almost bought a Kindle DX but I think I will go with the I Pad not too far in the near future. I am waiting for the contract to run out on a thumb drive to get it. I have Kindle on phone, and all my computers. I have to mention something about the OP or this post might get busted. Do you think the inventor of the Kindle was a Molinist, there that should do it?
 
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AndOne

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In just glancing over the book - it appears to be more of a rebuttal of Calvinism than about Molinism - but it looks to be much more of a scholarly work than that of either Geisler or Hunt. I think I'm going to enjoy reading it....
 
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AndOne

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I am jealous. I almost bought a Kindle DX but I think I will go with the I Pad not too far in the near future. I am waiting for the contract to run out on a thumb drive to get it. I have Kindle on phone, and all my computers. I have to mention something about the OP or this post might get busted. Do you think the inventor of the Kindle was a Molinist, there that should do it?

I never would have gotten the Kindle but my wife got me one for my birthday last September on a whim. She knows I am an avid reader and thought it would be a cool present. Didn't think I would like it much - but it has turned out to be one of the best gifts I've gotten from her (and we've been married over 20 years). I can hardly stand to read a hard copy book any more. I've also learned that I read much faster with a Kindle. Not sure why - but a lot of it has to do with the fact that I can adjust the font to my liking...
 
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Easystreet

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In just glancing over the book - it appears to be more of a rebuttal of Calvinism than about Molinism - but it looks to be much more of a scholarly work than that of either Geisler or Hunt. I think I'm going to enjoy reading it....


Personally I think Dr. Geisler is real close to being a Molinist, but I know he would disagree with me. Dr. Geisler is one of my Role Models.
 
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drstevej

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Personally I think Dr. Geisler is real close to being a Molinist, but I know he would disagree with me. Dr. Geisler is one of my Role Models.


FTIW, Dr. Geisler has stayed in our home before. Nice guy but in talking with him he was confused on the difference between the Protestant and Catholic view of justification. He is a good debater whether his position is right or wrong.
 
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AndOne

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Personally I think Dr. Geisler is real close to being a Molinist, but I know he would disagree with me. Dr. Geisler is one of my Role Models.

I think I read in one of your posts once that you knew him - so I may be off base here. But I've heard through James White's radio show that Geisler agrees with W L Craig on molonism...
 
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AndOne

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FTIW, Dr. Geisler has stayed in our home before. Nice guy but in talking with him he was confused on the difference between the Protestant and Catholic view of justification. He is a good debater whether his position is right or wrong.

You should have asked him to sign your copy of the "Potter's Freedom..."


uh - oh boy - i better go to bed now...
 
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drstevej

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You should have asked him to sign your copy of the "Potter's Freedom..."


uh - oh boy - i better go to bed now...

That book was published about 7 years after our discussion.
 
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Easystreet

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I think I read in one of your posts once that you knew him - so I may be off base here. But I've heard through James White's radio show that Geisler agrees with W L Craig on molonism...

Not personally. He was the commencement speaker when I graduated from College, May 1978 William Tyndale College. Dr. Wendall G. Johnson was the President and later went to Dallas where he graduated and became one of their VPs. Geisler graduated from WTC and taught there too but not when I was there.
 
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drstevej

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Not personally. He was the commencement speaker when I graduated from College, May 1978 William Tyndale College. Dr. Wendall G. Johnson was the President and later went to Dallas where he graduated and became one of their VPs. Geisler graduated from WTC and taught there too but not when I was there.

Did you meet Gordon Ainsworth at Tyndale?
He's a buddy from DTS days
 
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nobdysfool

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I thought I posted the definition. Anyway here is the definition from Keathley's book

Page 35 and 36

"A counter factual is a conditional statement that has two distinctive features: (1) involves a condition that is contrary to fact (for example, "if Kennedy had not been killed in 1963, then he would have won reelection in 1964"); and (2) it expresses a truth that belongs to this actual world. In other words, a counterfactual is a statement that is contrary to fact yet possesses truth content.

We use the truths that counterfactuals contain on a regular basis. Examples are common: "If I don't take out the cookies when the timer goes off, then they will burn"; or "If I run this red light, then I will be involved in an accident." Heeding the truth content causes the events described to not come to pass - the cookies are not burned and no accident occurs - hence the statements typically are contrary to fact (which is why they are called "counter-factual"). So they are true conditionals in the subjunctive mood. And as these examples illustrate, counterfactuals are a part of daily life. The Bible also makes frequent use of counterfactuals."

Please not that I did not say this but I agree and he has PhD not that matters to me, but it does to some. ;)

Actually, I don't believe that you did, hence my requests. I recall another time where we had to stop and define some terms so we could continue the discussion without talking past each other.

As for the whole PhD thing, I don't have one, but Steve does, and I know he earned it, therefore he has every right to use it in his name, not to say "look at me", but simply because he has earned the right to be called "Doctor". I have computer certifications that I add to my name in relevant circumstances, I paid the fees to take the tests and studied for them, so I have earned the right to put them after my name, which is the protocol for such things. Just for the record, they are A+ and Network+. After I finish my school studies (online, in my case, through Kaplan University), I will be able to place BS in Information Technology after my name, and once I earn certification in Project Management, that acronym will also go after my name. In Seabreezer's case, I would dare him to tell his medical doctor that placing "Dr." in front of his name was a sign of insecurity. I don't think he would get very far with that, and might even have to find another doctor....

I'm with you on the iPad! It's the first Apple product that I've actually wanted to own. My daughter works for Chase Bank, and can get them at a discount (it's great to have connections!), so when I have the money, I will have her get me one.

BTW, Dr. Steve is a very gracious host, and gave me a tour around his town, pointing out landmarks and such. He knows some great places to eat, as well, and I thoroughly enjoyed the time I spent with him. He is one of the nicest people I've ever met, and a very thoughtful and insightful man, as any good pastor should be.

OK, back to the thread....
 
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Easystreet

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Actually, I don't believe that you did, hence my requests. I recall another time where we had to stop and define some terms so we could continue the discussion without talking past each other.

As for the whole PhD thing, I don't have one, but Steve does, and I know he earned it, therefore he has every right to use it in his name, not to say "look at me", but simply because he has earned the right to be called "Doctor". I have computer certifications that I add to my name in relevant circumstances, I paid the fees to take the tests and studied for them, so I have earned the right to put them after my name, which is the protocol for such things. Just for the record, they are A+ and Network+. After I finish my school studies (online, in my case, through Kaplan University), I will be able to place BS in Information Technology after my name, and once I earn certification in Project Management, that acronym will also go after my name. In Seabreezer's case, I would dare him to tell his medical doctor that placing "Dr." in front of his name was a sign of insecurity. I don't think he would get very far with that, and might even have to find another doctor....

I'm with you on the iPad! It's the first Apple product that I've actually wanted to own. My daughter works for Chase Bank, and can get them at a discount (it's great to have connections!), so when I have the money, I will have her get me one.

BTW, Dr. Steve, is a very gracious host, and gave me a tour around his town, pointing out landmarks and such. He knows some great places to eat, as well, and I thoroughly enjoyed the time I spent with him. He is one of the nicest people I've ever met, and a very thoughtful and insightful man, as any good pastor should be.

OK, back to the thread....


Sounds like we are all getting past the PhD issue; The NOOK is a Neat reader too, but I want the I Pad.


I don't think Kim Komando is a Molenist but she is very a depth in all things electronic which may be considered a theological. You may enjoy, as well as others, checking her website out HERE
 
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heymikey80

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Isn't the basic issue for molinism the same basic problem as any philosophical position that injects independent human will as the tilting-weight in a person's salvation?

The philosophical question of whether middle knowledge exists or not for an omniscient God doesn't really impede the basic issue on Scriptural terms -- God chooses people, not on the basis of human will or work.

Right?
 
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nobdysfool

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Sounds like we are all getting past the PhD issue; The NOOK is a Neat reader too, but I want the I Pad.


I don't think Kim Komando is a Molenist but she is very a depth in all things electronic which may be considered a theological. You may enjoy, as well as others, checking her website out HERE

I'm partial to Leo LaPorte, THE Tech Guy. I listen to him on the weekends on XM158, and I can catch his streaming stuff on TwitTV online. Just Google Leo LaPorte, and you'll find it all. I don't think he's a Molinist, either....

And I do agree, the iPad is "da bomb!"
 
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