Molinism

[AndOne]

I don't remember where I read the percentages. There are I know for sure two Calvinist where I go to church and that would be out of 500 and that would be .0147 percent.

I honestly don't know how many Calvinists are in my church - or arminians for that matter. I don't even know if my pastor is Calvinist or not (though I assume he is based on his sermons).

One thing I don't do however, is go around trying to figure out who is and who isn't. I feel that such an attitude is divisive and has no place in the church quite frankly. If I found out somehow that another member was arminian it wouldn't change anything about how I felt about the church and I would embrace him as a brother in Christ. Which is what you should be doing regarding the 2 Calvinists who are in your church.

 

[AndOne]

Paedobaptism and the relative theology of SBC members has no relevance to this thread. Stick to the subject, please.

You're right - sorry...

 

[nobdysfool]

You're right - sorry...

No problem, you did make a valid point....

 

[nobdysfool]

20 Then He proceeded to denounce the towns where most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent: 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented in sackcloth and ashes long ago! 22 But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until today. 24 But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
Matt 11:20-24 (HCSB)

And this proves, what, exactly?

 

[Hammster]

20 Then He proceeded to denounce the towns where most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent: 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented in sackcloth and ashes long ago! 22 But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until today. 24 But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
Matt 11:20-24 (HCSB)

Just because God has knowledge of what might happen does not mean that this is the means that He used to create our world.

 

[Hammster]

It has been the attempt by some Calvinist to frame the argument concerning SBC members as a Calvinist body of believers but this notion is far from reality, I recently recall reading that the rank and file of the SBC as it pertains to Calvinism is less than 10 percent. So that would mean that the vast majority of SBC members do not identify with Calvinism.

Odd that the President and Dean of Students of Southern Seminary, along with a good percentage of staff, are Calvinists. Which shows that the Baptists are returning to their roots.

 

[Easystreet]

Paedobaptism and the relative theology of SBC members has no relevance to this thread. Stick to the subject, please.

You said, "Seeing how Molinism's origin is from the RCC, I'm surprised that you, as a Baptist, would even consider it,............"

 

[nobdysfool]

the whole topic is irrelevant to the thread topic. Besides, an appeal to numbers or percentages is a logical fallacy. Just because a number of people believe a certain way, does not make that way correct. It lends no credence whatsoever to the truth or lack of truth, of any particular theological view. It is not a valid measure.

 

[nobdysfool]

You said, "Seeing how Molinism's origin is from the RCC, I'm surprised that you, as a Baptist, would even consider it,............"

My statement was directly related to the subject of this thread, which is Molinism. The SBC, and Calvin's and Augustine's' views on paedobaptism have absolutely nothing to do with Molinism.

Now, can we stick to the subject, without all the rabbit trails?

 

[Easystreet]

And this proves, what, exactly?

20 Then He proceeded to denounce the towns where most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent: 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented in sackcloth and ashes long ago! 22 But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until today. 24 But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
Matt 11:20-24 (HCSB)

It proves that which is underlined .

 

[drstevej]

There is sufficient proof that a pre saving grace exist and that faith is prior to salvation (regeneration) and in fact it is impossible to scripturally prove that regeneration is first and faith follows, this simply cannot be proved from the bible, faith first and salvation second (regeneration)

How much time lapses between faith and regeneration?

• a hour
• a minute
• a second
• a nanosecond
• none

 

[AndOne]

20 Then He proceeded to denounce the towns where most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent: 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented in sackcloth and ashes long ago! 22 But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until today. 24 But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
Matt 11:20-24 (HCSB)

Can you explain how this proves middle-knowledge?

 

[Easystreet]

Can you explain how this proves middle-knowledge?

For if the miracles that were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, (then) they would have repented in sackcloth and ashes long ago!

This is a counterfactual - if this then that.

 

[nobdysfool]

20 Then He proceeded to denounce the towns where most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent: 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented in sackcloth and ashes long ago! 22 But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until today. 24 But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
Matt 11:20-24 (HCSB)

It proves that which is underlined .

Then you should be able to explain it. Please humor us....

 

[nobdysfool]

For if the miracles that were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, (then) they would have repented in sackcloth and ashes long ago!

This is a counterfactual - if this then that.

OK, fancy term that means what, exactly?

 

[Easystreet]

Just because God has knowledge of what might happen does not mean that this is the means that He used to create our world.

The strength of the view is greater than your objection.

 

[nobdysfool]

The strength of the view is greater than your objection.

That's not an answer. It explains nothing.

 

[AndOne]

For if the miracles that were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, (then) they would have repented in sackcloth and ashes long ago!

This is a counterfactual - if this then that.

Yes - but middle-knowledge consists of many counterfactuals - not just one possibility. So I don't see how this verse supports molinism.

 

[Hammster]

And this proves, what, exactly?

His argument is that just because God can know counterfactuals, that this is how He created. No proof to that, but this is all they have outside of philosophical arguments. It is their way of admitting that God does predestine.

 

[Easystreet]

We know that Jesus is God and God made the statement that if the miracles that were done in Bethsaida were done in Tyre and Sidon they would have repented. We know that God is not a liar so we can "FOR REAL" believe this counterfactual. This truth which is stated by God because Jesus is God, it being a counterfactual, stands as real had they seen the miracles.


If I had not typed this statement I would have done something else, what that would have been is open to my environment, but with God and Jesus is God and He does not lie and has told us that if they had seen the miracles they would have done this and this in their case is "Repent". Now the fact is this they did not see the miracles and they did not repent but if they had they would have repented. This counterfactual does not say if this then they might have no it says if this they would have. We cannot refute this clear counterfactual. This then proves Molina's application of God's middle knowledge. Now the label "Middle Knowledge" is only a label for the facts stand and cannot be refuted.