Modesty survey results

[RoseofLima]

I really can't comprehend some of these answers.
The one I really truly disagree with is the one about overalls.
In no way shape or form, if overalls are being worn properly, can they be immodest.
modest shirt, proper size of overalls so they're not tight, drawn up on the straps so the top of the front isn't low, but below the neck a bit...
if overalls in and of themselves are immodest, i guess we better start wrapping dark colored sheets around ourselves...
or those... shapeless plaid jumpers...
goodness gracious..


sorry, that question kind of hit a nerve with me tonight!

You do understans that the guys in the survey answered that overalls ARE modest when worn with a modest shirt.

As someone who was a devout wearer of overalls for many years- I can assure you that they can absolutely be immodest...it only takes a black bra and a skimpy white undershirt.

 

[MikeK]

When I was younger I stumbled often, but I was never "caused to stumble" by any immodest girl. The very idea that there are women out there who are thinking "I better not wear this, the men-folk won't be able to control their urges!" screams of vanity to me.....but then again, this servey was done (although with a severly flawed methodology as previously noted) and the results are clear - there ARE people who are apparently caused to stumble by a glimpse of swimwear or a hawian shirt. I think a previous poster nailed it when she noted that the boys who took this survey were more likely to have been exposed to the modesty movement previously, thus rendering certain things "forbidden fruit" that Joe Average would never even take note of. I think it could be that men who are constantly reminded how scandalous a piece of bathing suit or high heels are would be far more likely to "stumble" from it than someone who lives and works among "normal" women all day every day and sees that her selection of shoes has nothing to do with her moral character. Men from strict muslim countries where women must wear burkhas are prbably more inclined to "stumble" when they see a girl in overalls than I am.
As I said earlier, when I stumbled, it was always to beautiful girls irrespective of their garb. If you want to make sure guys like me don't stumble, wearing clown makeup to hide your beauty might be an option. Tempting women are as tempting in a sweatsuit as they are in a bikini, at least to me. Also, women who don't take care of themselves really have nothing to worry about when it comes to making most men stumble. You could wear fig leaves and I don't think most of us would be too bothered by it.

 

[colleen]

Shannon, I'm glad you found the survey useful. I was beginning to think I had drank the modesty kool-aid, because I wan't offended.

As far as the data being skewed I disagree. This was the perfect audience to answer girls questions, the very Christian men we claim we want to help. While it would be interesting to hear from
Joe average in the end I'm not going to start wearing low cut shirts, because a guy so desensitized by pornography and permarital sex says it is okay. The average guy who doesn't see touching yourself or permarital sex as a problem is going to see and treat me as nothing but something to be used anyway. In the end I'll take the advice of Christian men striving for purity, and pray that it will help the average joes see me as more than a body.

 

[ufonium2]

When my son was six weeks old, my husband's parents came to visit. It was July, in the South. One day, I was wearing brown pants, a brown tank top, and a white button up shirt OVER it. Granted, that shirt didn't button up to the chin, but it did button, and I was wearing a shirt under it regardless. Well, my mother-in-law accused me of causing her husband (my husband's father, remember) to stare at my chest. I have never been a small-chested woman, and I was breastfeeding at that time, so of course I was "full-chested" at the time. But that's physiological. I can't control that any more than I can control having a small nose or big hands.

Assuming my father-in-law was staring at me (which is extremely improbable, to begin with), was it my fault? If a man "stumbles" because I'm not wearing a parka (or burka) in July, should I go ahead and burka up? People are weirded out/turned on/offended/etc. by any number of things, and there's no way to dress in a way that's not going to turn someone on.

 

[epiclesis]

You do understans that the guys in the survey answered that overalls ARE modest when worn with a modest shirt.

As someone who was a devout wearer of overalls for many years- I can assure you that they can absolutely be immodest...it only takes a black bra and a skimpy white undershirt.

I said when worn properly. the question states overalls with a modest shirt underneath. this is assuming they're the right size, the right shirt, pulled up to the right spot, etc...

and still almost 100 guys said immodest...

i agree, they can very well be immodest, when not worn properly... but when they are, i just cannot see how they are immodest.

 

[MikeK]

Men can't be expected to control themselves after getting a glimpse of a family member's cleavage now, can they?

People are weirded out/turned on/offended/etc. by any number of things, and there's no way to dress in a way that's not going to turn someone on.

I agree with this. That doesn't mean that anyone should wear revealing clothing, but don't for one minute think that someone who is likely to stumble over you is going to be prevented from doing so by your modest dress, unless it's a tarp or burkha. If you don't want anyone to stumble, be ugly, it'll work every time!

 

[MikeK]

i agree, they can very well be immodest, when not worn properly... but when they are, i just cannot see how they are immodest.

I would suspect that it all boils down to one's upbringing. If someone's parents feed him a bunch of tripe about how you should never gaze upon a woman's shoulder's because the evil one will tempt you into touching yourself, well, then he might just gaze a little longer at an exposed shoulder and he might just find himself tempted. Someone raised with an understanding of why and how the sexes are different (and how they aren't) would just say "wow, look, her shoulder's are just like mine but less musular. Hmmph."....actually, he probably wouldn't take notice at all.

 

[Rising_Suns]

People are weirded out/turned on/offended/etc. by any number of things, and there's no way to dress in a way that's not going to turn someone on.

but don't for one minute think that someone who is likely to stumble over you is going to be prevented from doing so by your modest dress, unless it's a tarp or burkha. If you don't want anyone to stumble, be ugly, it'll work every time!

In other words, "men are going to fall no matter how you dress. So there's no use in trying."

I think it is important to make two points here: First, this is a very dangerous message. Second, it is not Catholic.

-Davide

 

[MikeK]

In other words, "men are going to fall no matter how you dress. So there's no use in trying."

In other words? Not quite, my words conveyed what I was trying to say just fine, yours do not. I (and maybe I'm alone, but I doubt it) am and always was attracted to beautiful, smart women with good sences of humor more than I was to someone who dressed in <fill in the blank> When I stumbled , these are the people I stumbled because of. The only thing (besides a stronger will on my part) that could have prevented such was for the women in question to not be so attractive to me, in other words (my other words, not yours) if you don't want me to stumble, don't be pretty, and don't be funny, and don't be smart. Because that's what sexy and attractive and tempting are all about to me, not some harlot who has a thong sticking out of her pants. The thong that you immagine hidden under a conservative dress and coat is way sexier and more tempting to my mind. Maybe some people don't immagine as well, or maybe some people prefer their girls to look like tramps - fine, but it doesn't reflect my oppinion or preference. As this poll shows us, even the sheltered folks can't agree on much, more than one in 10think that flowered shirts are stumbling blocks. Seriously, that's just wierd. John Mcenroe's words rang in my mind when I read the flowered shirt bit - "You cannot be serious!"

 

[Caedmon]

"You have less respect for an immodest girl than for a modest one."

This one killed me. 75.6% (37% + 38.6%) of these guys need a good thwacking (unless... then no).

The impression I got from this poll is that if you don't dress a certain way, you're a dirty little harlot, and your parents, church leaders, etc. are numbskulls who might not (i.e., probably aren't) "saved." I'm no opponent of modesty, and I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I'm just giving my feelings on the matter. The poll read like an inverted, gratuitously detailed "What's sexy?" questionnaire.

And on that note, I think that long hair, head-coverings (veils, bandanas, etc.) and long sundresses are very, very sexy.

 

[ufonium2]

In other words, "men are going to fall no matter how you dress. So there's no use in trying."

No. More like, "Men are going to fall no matter how I dress. So stop blaming me for their weakness." This thread is about half a step away from that Australian imam calling women in Western dress "uncovered meat" and saying it was their own fault if they were raped, because men can't be expected to control themselves.

 

[colleen]

Can we have just one modesty thread that didn't turn into women deserve to be raped. That is not what these guys are saying. Did you read the answer to who in the end wa responisible for their thoughts and sins. There answer said that the buck stops with them. They are just asking for help in the battle.

 

[Maynard Keenan]

WOW, they need to more prominently display that the questions are NOT results. I was dumbfounded reading it and thinking that guys agreed that seeing a calf is a stumbling block!

 

[Rising_Suns]

Can we have just one modesty thread that didn't turn into women deserve to be raped. That is not what these guys are saying. Did you read the answer to who in the end wa responisible for their thoughts and sins. There answer said that the buck stops with them. They are just asking for help in the battle.
.

Colleen,
I'm glad that you continue to post these modesty threads, even though they are sometimes met with resistance. The message of purity and modesty is too important to let a few people discourage you.

Blessings,

-Davide

 

[MikeK]

WOW, they need to more prominently display that the questions are NOT results. I was dumbfounded reading it and thinking that guys agreed that seeing a calf is a stumbling block!

If you believe this survey, 7% of men DO think that seeing a woman's calf is a stumbling block. Yep. 1 in 14 men stumble at the sight of a calf. To quote John McEnroe; "You canNOT be serious!"

Have these guys spent their lives in caves? Did their parents raise them to think that appreciating a woman's body is always sinful? Are they calf-fetishists? Did they misunderstand the question?

 

[MikeK]

Colleen,
I'm glad that you continue to post these modesty threads, even though they are sometimes met with resistance. The message of purity and modesty is too important to let a few people discourage you.

Blessings,

-Davide

I agree 100%! I appreciate modest women very much. I don't have such a high regard for men with so little self-control that they "stumble" at the sight of a woman's bare calf. These guys really oughta talk to somebody.

 

[Rising_Suns]

Perhaps it should be noted, again, that this thread is not about what men are doing wrong, but about what women can do to help guys.

By virtue of the supreme apostolate which he wields over the Universal Church by Divine Will, our Most Holy Father Pope Pius XI has never ceased to inculcate, both verbally and by his writings, the words of St. Paul (1 Tim. xi,9-10), namely, &#8220;Women ... adorning themselves with modesty and sobriety ... and professing godliness with good works.&#8221;

Very often, when occasion arose, the same Supreme Pontiff condemned emphatically the immodest fashion of dress adopted by Catholic women and girls -- which fashion not only offends the dignity of women and against her adornment, but conduces to the temporal ruin of the women and girls, and, what is still worse, to their eternal ruin, miserably dragging down others in their fall. It is not surprising, therefore, that all Bishops and other ordinaries, as is the duty of ministers of Christ, should in their own dioceses have unanimously opposed their depraved licentiousness and promiscuity of manners, often bearing with fortitude the derision and mockery leveled against them for this cause.

Therefore this Sacred Council, which watches over the discipline of clergy and people, while cordially commending the action of the Venerable Bishops, most emphatically exhorts them to persevere in their attitude and increase their activities insofar as their strength permits, in order that this unwholesome disease be definitely uprooted from human society. In order to facilitate the desired effect, this Sacred Congregation, by the mandate of the Most Holy Father, has decreed as follows:

Exhortation to Those in Authority

1. The parish priest, and especially the preacher, when occasion arises, should, according to the words of the Apostle Paul (2 Tim. iv, 2), insist, argue exhort and command that feminine garb be based on modesty and womanly ornament be a defense of virtue. Let them likewise admonish parents to cause their daughters to cease wearing indecorous dress.

2. Parents, conscious of their grave obligations toward the education, especially religious and moral, to their offspring, should see to it that their daughters are solidly instructed, from earliest childhood, in Christian doctrine; and they themselves should assiduously inculcate in their souls, by word and example, love for the virtues of modesty and chastity; and since their family should follow the example of the Holy Family, they must rule in such a manner that all its members, reared within the walls of the home, should find reason and incentive to love and preserve modesty.

3. Let parents keep their daughters away from public gymnastic games and contests*; but if their daughters are compelled to attend such exhibitions, let them see that they are fully and modestly dressed. Let them never permit their daughters to don immodest garb.

4. Superioresses and teachers in schools for girls must do their utmost to instill love of modesty in the hearts of maidens confided to their care and urge them to dress modestly.

5. Said Superioresses and teachers must not receive in their colleges and schools immodestly dressed girls, and should not even make an exception in the case of mothers of pupils. If, after being admitted, girls persist in dressing immodestly, such pupils should be dismissed.

6. Nuns, in compliance with the Letter dated August 23, 1928, by the Sacred Congregation of Religious, must not receive in their colleges, schools, oratories or recreation grounds, or, if once admitted, tolerate girls who are not dressed with Christian modesty; said Nuns, in addition, should do their utmost so that love for holy chastity and Christian modesty may become deeply rooted in the hearts of their pupils.

7. It is desirable that pious organizations of women be founded, which by their counsel, example and propaganda should combat the wearing of apparel unsuited to Christian modesty, and should promote purity of customs and modesty of dress.

8. In the pious associations of women those who dress immodestly should not be admitted to membership; but if, perchance, they are received, and after having been admitted, fall again into their error, they should be dismissed forthwith.

9. Maidens and women dressed immodestly are to be debarred from Holy Communion and from acting as sponsors at the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation; further, if the offense be extreme, they may even be forbidden to enter the church.

Donato Cardinal Sbaretti, Prefect
Congregation of the Council Rome, January 12, 1930

*While this comment may seem out of place to us today, we must remember the context of the time when it was made, which likely addressed a certain downward trend in dress in sports/gymnastics

 

[thesearenotthecatholicsyouarelookingfor]

If you believe this survey, 7% of men DO think that seeing a woman's calf is a stumbling block. Yep. 1 in 14 men stumble at the sight of a calf. To quote John McEnroe; "You canNOT be serious!"

Have these guys spent their lives in caves? Did their parents raise them to think that appreciating a woman's body is always sinful? Are they calf-fetishists? Did they misunderstand the question?

Perhaps they should not be allowed to attend rodeos

 

[BillH]

While I think that the average young woman in Western society today could stand to dress a lot more modestly (I see WAY more than I'd like to of some of my students) there is a point where one can become too scrupulous. Honestly, with a lot of adolescent boys, about the only way that you will be able to keep them from stumbling is to wear a burka.

So, I don't think that it's entirely unreasonable to try to maintain a balance here. Yes, there are some obvious things that women can do to make it easier on men, but men have to work on self control in themselves.

 

[epiclesis]

I would like to apologize if the attitude in my first post here sounded something other than I meant it. I do appreciate these threads, because modesty is a beautiful thing and I do try my best not to dress in a way that is provocative or a stumbling block. (Not only for the sake of the males that see me, but I want to be comfortable with who I am, and not feel guilty or self conscious of what i'm wearing.)

But there is a balance, there has to be. and like Bill said, there is such thing as too scrupulous. and what I meant was that I don't think this survey shows the balance 100%... while the survey was helpful, of course, I don't think it can be relied on 100% for what you will come across with in guys in everyday life. (because overalls in and of themselves are not immodest. )

Perhaps it's just the males who answered the survey, perhaps they analyzed and interpreted it in a way that it wasn't worded, I don't know... but just sharing my last minute two cents on the subject!