Modern secular morality and it's inability to be authoritative

Bradskii

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That's all well and practical, but the context of THIS thread is whether or not these moral ideas and their attending decisions are AUTHORITATIVE...
Let's check the very first line of the op:

'...I use the term *secular* lightly here as it's the only way...to encompass all worldviews that deny a transcendent source for morality or moral truths'.

So the op is talking about a secular based morality versus a transcendent one. That is, a divenely based morality. One nominated by God.

Now unless I'm very much mistaken, Christians taking the latter position will view morality as objective. It is written. How could it possibly be otherwise? If not God, then who could possibly be the authority which defines it as authoritive? Nobody has even approached that problem.

And a secular based morality depends on the individual making the decision as opposed to deferring to an authority. As @zippy2006 just said a few posts people ago:

'...as the OP points out, secular moral systems are in no way authoritative, and often do not even claim to be'.

So what else could this be but a discussion about relative and absolute morality?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Let's check the very first line of the op:

'...I use the term *secular* lightly here as it's the only way...to encompass all worldviews that deny a transcendent source for morality or moral truths'.

So the op is talking about a secular based morality versus a transcendent one. That is, a divenely based morality. One nominated by God.

Now unless I'm very much mistaken, Christians taking the latter position will view morality as objective. It is written. How could it possibly be otherwise? If not God, then who could possibly be the authority which defines it as authoritive? Nobody has even approached that problem.

And a secular based morality depends on the individual making the decision as opposed to deferring to an authority. As @zippy2006 just said a few posts people ago:

'...as the OP points out, secular moral systems are in no way authoritative, and often do not even claim to be'.

So what else could this be but a discussion about relative and absolute morality?

All we have to do is argue with Kant, and if in the process of doing so we fail, then there goes your attempt to reduce the OP to a one-liner......................................

......................the problem here, Bradskii, is that the whole point of the OP is even if we agree on some common moral item---take 'theft' as a common, everyday example---all this agreement does is describe that a certain number of people agreed that they don't like having something stolen from them. They can even make a 'social contract' (ala Hobbes, or Locke, or Rousseau or whoever else). But even if the agree about theft and they also draw up a social contract, without a metaphysical backing for that, all they're doing is making a practical decision based on aesthetics, that is: what they prefer not be.

As you've said, at that point it's not about right or wrong. So then, the abstracted application of the ambiguous notion of "authority" to the social contract comes from certain notions of inherent values somehow giving the contract 'force.' But the problem is that the 'force' doesn't actually make the contract "GOOD." It just makes the contract acceptable, and they can think about how they'll enforce the principles they've decided upon, but that enforcement also isn't by necessity "GOOD." It's just a practical administration.

So, while more and more people may be brought into the agreement of the contract for seemingly functional, mutual anticipations of well-being, this doesn't mean anyone HAS to believe that breaking the contract is either BAD or EVIL. Only that they better be very clever in doing so so as to avoid practical repercussions.

This is where Kant comes in with his Transcendental arguments, without which, we're just agreeing to play social ping-pong for as long as it suits us without actually arriving at Good and Evil on a level that really makes a definitional difference where excuses for immorality then become moot.
 
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Chriliman

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It can exist. But just because something benefits others doesn't make it morally good.
So it can’t exist?

I acknowledge you’ve stated your opinion, but I’m sorry I can’t accept it as fact.
 
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rturner76

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That is true, and it is furthermore true that democracy is not an inherently secular form of government.
I was under the impression that democracy is secular, as there is no church to "crown" the President/Prime Minister/Chancellor.
 
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Ken-1122

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rturner76

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That is true, and it is furthermore true that democracy is not an inherently secular form of government.
In a way, it is because it is based on the consensus of the people rather than a Holy Book.
 
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Neutral Observer

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We can all agree that stealing your wallet is immoral. I'm sure you would.

Ehhhhh... sorry but not so fast. There's absolutely a part of me that wants to be politically correct and socially responsible, and say that of course stealing is immoral. But I can't quite bring myself to do it, and I'm not sure why. People do what people do and deep down I genuinely wish that they wouldn't, but there's also this nagging part of me that says that I don't have the right to judge. Because I don't know why things are the way they are, or why people do what they do. I only have my life and my perspective from which to draw, and knowing how inadequate my life has been I have no right to judge anyone else's.

If I have the right to judge someone else, then they have the right to judge me, and rest assured I wouldn't fare very well.
 
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Bradskii

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All we have to do is argue with Kant, and if in the process of doing so we fail, then there goes your attempt to reduce the OP to a one-liner......................................

......................the problem here, Bradskii, is that the whole point of the OP is even if we agree on some common moral item---take 'theft' as a common, everyday example---all this agreement does is describe that a certain number of people agreed that they don't like having something stolen from them. They can even make a 'social contract' (ala Hobbes, or Locke, or Rousseau or whoever else). But even if the agree about theft and they also draw up a social contract, without a metaphysical backing for that, all they're doing is making a practical decision based on aesthetics, that is: what they prefer not be.
No, it's good in that it works. And I don't want to live in a society that doesn't work. I think it was Zippy who said upstream that the lack of morals today means that society is collapsing (we're still waiting to hear exactly how he thinks that is demonstrated). Well, it ain't. Civilisation and the societies that comprise them have been in existence for ten millenium and more. If the systems we have in place, including our sense of morality, didn't work then you wouldn't be sitting there safe and well fed reading this. And I will defy anyone to pick an earlier time when it was better to live. By any metric you'd like to propose, this is a good time to be alive.

Imagine two islands. One where people thought nothing of murder, rape, pillage...anything goes. Morality doesn't exist. And another where murder, assault and theft are considered to be morally wrong. Where do you honestly think everyone would choose to live? And if you asked them why, they'd say that the island with a moral sense would be a good place to live. And the other a bad one.

Now all that is from a societal viewpoint. So let's look at the personal one. Someone steals your car. How do you describe that experience? A good one? Or a bad one? Obviously the second. But hey...where's the 'metaphysical backing for that? Are you describing it as bad because there is general consensus on what bad actually refers to? No...you are using the term to describe something you don't like. It really isn't any deeper than that.
 
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Bradskii

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Ehhhhh... sorry but not so fast. There's absolutely a part of me that wants to be politically correct and socially responsible, and say that of course stealing is immoral. But I can't quite bring myself to do it, and I'm not sure why. People do what people do and deep down I genuinely wish that they wouldn't, but there's also this nagging part of me that says that I don't have the right to judge. Because I don't know why things are the way they are, or why people do what they do. I only have my life and my perspective from which to draw, and knowing how inadequate my life has been I have no right to judge anyone else's.

If I have the right to judge someone else, then they have the right to judge me, and rest assured I wouldn't fare very well.
Would you llike your wallet stolen? Very obviously not. It would be a bad thing to happen. You have empathy. And I'm sure you've seen someone in distress because they have been robbed. And you know what it feels like. You know they feel it's a bad thing.

So...everyone thinks it's bad. Even the guy who stole your wallet would think so if someone stole his wallet. So how can it be anything but wrong? If we can't describe being robbed as wrong then the word is effectively useless. And if someone does something we consider to be wrong we call it an immoral act.

It really isn't any simpler than that.
 
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YahuahSaves

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So the only thing I DEMAND is a fair hearing for my views and a reasonable discussion about theirs.
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Tranquil Bondservant

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Imagine two islands. One where people thought nothing of murder, rape, pillage...anything goes. Morality doesn't exist.
Just sneaking in for a quick drive by before I scurry away again but those who murder, rape and pillage still have morality, they're just choosing what morals they prefer. Just like you. Within Naturalism & Materialism the basis (justification) for your reciprocal altruism is just as non existent as those who prefer anarchy.
 
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YahuahSaves

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There's absolutely a part of me that wants to be politically correct and socially responsible, and say that of course stealing is immoral. But I can't quite bring myself to do it, and I'm not sure why. People do what people do and deep down I genuinely wish that they wouldn't, but there's also this nagging part of me that says that I don't have the right to judge. Because I don't know why things are the way they are, or why people do what they do. I only have my life and my perspective from which to draw, and knowing how inadequate my life has been I have no right to judge anyone else's.
That's the most thought-provoking thing I've seen you say this entire thread.
Conscience, what is it really?

If I have the right to judge someone else, then they have the right to judge me, and rest assured I wouldn't fare very well.

Matthew 7:1-2
Do Not Judge Others
7 “Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. 2 For you will be treated as you treat others.[a] The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged.
 
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Bradskii

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Conscience, what is it really?
That small voice that tells you that your fast subconscious decision and your slower conscious appraisal are at odds.
 
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YahuahSaves

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That small voice that tells you that your fast subconscious decision and your slower conscious appraisal are at odds.
Is that a product of evolution IYO?

Triune brain
The triune brain is a model of the evolution of the vertebrate forebrain and behavior, proposed by the American physician and neuroscientist Paul D.Wikipedia
 
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2PhiloVoid

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No, it's good in that it works. And I don't want to live in a society that doesn't work. I think it was Zippy who said upstream that the lack of morals today means that society is collapsing (we're still waiting to hear exactly how he thinks that is demonstrated). Well, it ain't. Civilisation and the societies that comprise them have been in existence for ten millenium and more. If the systems we have in place, including our sense of morality, didn't work then you wouldn't be sitting there safe and well fed reading this. And I will defy anyone to pick an earlier time when it was better to live. By any metric you'd like to propose, this is a good time to be alive.

Imagine two islands. One where people thought nothing of murder, rape, pillage...anything goes. Morality doesn't exist. And another where murder, assault and theft are considered to be morally wrong. Where do you honestly think everyone would choose to live? And if you asked them why, they'd say that the island with a moral sense would be a good place to live. And the other a bad one.

Now all that is from a societal viewpoint. So let's look at the personal one. Someone steals your car. How do you describe that experience? A good one? Or a bad one? Obviously the second. But hey...where's the 'metaphysical backing for that? Are you describing it as bad because there is general consensus on what bad actually refers to? No...you are using the term to describe something you don't like. It really isn't any deeper than that.

What is "the Good," Bradskii?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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No, it's good in that it works. And I don't want to live in a society that doesn't work. I think it was Zippy who said upstream that the lack of morals today means that society is collapsing (we're still waiting to hear exactly how he thinks that is demonstrated). Well, it ain't. Civilisation and the societies that comprise them have been in existence for ten millenium and more. If the systems we have in place, including our sense of morality, didn't work then you wouldn't be sitting there safe and well fed reading this. And I will defy anyone to pick an earlier time when it was better to live. By any metric you'd like to propose, this is a good time to be alive.

Imagine two islands. One where people thought nothing of murder, rape, pillage...anything goes. Morality doesn't exist. And another where murder, assault and theft are considered to be morally wrong. Where do you honestly think everyone would choose to live? And if you asked them why, they'd say that the island with a moral sense would be a good place to live. And the other a bad one.

Now all that is from a societal viewpoint. So let's look at the personal one. Someone steals your car. How do you describe that experience? A good one? Or a bad one? Obviously the second. But hey...where's the 'metaphysical backing for that? Are you describing it as bad because there is general consensus on what bad actually refers to? No...you are using the term to describe something you don't like. It really isn't any deeper than that.

Man. That's a very weak position. Between not caring about any of this, but claiming your have demands, it's a wonder you show up here at all, Bradskii.

I for one am not going to be probed for my own psycho-analytics without returning the favor.................................. just keep that in mind.

Why? Because it really does go deeper than that. If it doesn't, we have a problem since then there's no requirement that anyone has to be prodded to care beyond merely evolved instinct, and the lion can safely lie down with the lamb................and eat in peace.
 
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Zoii

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First of all I use the term *secular* lightly here as it's the only way in my pea size brain to encompass all worldviews that deny a transcendent source for morality or moral truths. So if it doesn't comport 1:1 please forgive me. Now to the post :).

If the acceptability of your moral actions is determined by the society around you then you can't say that other people's moral stances are wrong. Only that it is wrong for our current society, according to our arbitrary preferences. In order to believe certain morals are correct then you need to have a reason as to why that’s the case, under naturalism or materialism, a philosophical perspective that denies the transcendent it’s impossible. You have no reason to be empathetic, you have no reason to survive or live, you have no inherent value. It's all arbitrary now. According to the modern secular worldview the accusations laid against Christianity have no weight because in the worldview that slings them there's no ability to claim moral truth, only personal preferences (based on experience of stimulus).

On top of this is the idea that social dysfunction (blanket term for the basis & justification for evolutionary morality) = a specific thing is a matter of subjective interpretation. For example the Romans who created the longest lasting empire waged warfare continuously. Something that would be seen as obscene today. If your morality is based upon practicality and what works, then a society who's economic basis is built upon slavery (The Romans) would view slavery as good. In order to call the Romans wrong for building their empire on the backs of slaves you would need a reason as to why slavery is wrong both for them and us. In which case in order to do so you would assume a moral standard, something not relative.

Lastly, in ANY *secular* worldview agreements upon behaviour =/= why I should follow them, they are arbitrary agreements and need a basis if you want to condemn someone. If a society comes together and agrees that torture for x reason is moral, and I disagree, which one would be right and why? The moral principles are entirely arbitrary, you need a reason as to why hurting people is bad and then a reason as to why it's true. If you have no reason as to why it's true then you literally have no reason to believe it or follow it, let alone legislate it. If your reason is the avoidance of harm, you have now assumed that the avoidance of harm is a moral truth and you assume the value of human life which has no basis in materialism & naturalism (the dogmas which *secular* science is dependent upon). It seems incoherent. The only consistent stance within the *secular* worldview is that morality is arbitrary preference. I've only ever seen one person take this stance and it was The Amazing Atheist (used to watch him back in my atheist days) and if you were to take it I couldn't argue against it, I could only disagree on other basis's like philosophy & etc.

[Edit: There seems to be misunderstanding, I don't know if that's because of a lack of clarity on my part or if it's because of the opposing view's presuppositions imparting blinders on those who think them (all presuppositions do in a sense when you explain from them frequently). So I thought it prudent to link a detailed comment/response that explains the points a bit further and might provide some clarification. This is it here.]
Take a class in ethical philosophy. It will give you a grounding in ethical theories which are independent on which god or gods you believe in.

Being ethical and moral is on principles such as do no harm. That you are a Hindu or Moslem or believe in the three Christian gods, makes no difference to that principle.

I suggest you do some reading on the topic.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Take a class in ethical philosophy. It will give you a grounding in ethical theories which are independent on which god or gods you believe in.

Being ethical and moral is on principles such as do no harm. That you are a Hindu or Moslem or believe in the three Christian gods, makes no difference to that principle.

I suggest you do some reading on the topic.

That's what I was suggesting. But there's not many takers here, apparently, Zoii.
 
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