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I would have to agree with you in part Ricker... Ellen was a sinner like the rest of us and struggled in her walk. I think you can say that about all the people God has used... think about Noah, Moses, David, Solomon, Peter, and even Paul who said he was the chief sinner. We can't put anyone on a pedestal.
No, we do not like a whole lot of debating---why should we?--It has it's place, when trying to explain someone's position on something--but endless debates that get no one anywhere is useless.
Sorry, doesn't compute. Adventists still have as their mission to call people out of Babylon and challenge the beliefs of all the other churches. They still say that other churches are wrong.
How does that process not involve discussing how the Adventist message measures up to the Scriptures? I thought that is what Adventists were inviting folks to do by their claims.
Adventists should own up to their mission and stop pretending they are just wanting to sit back and be left alone in the world of Christian thought.
Either she was all right, or all wrong. There is no in-between. She couldn't have been used by God partially and used by Satan the rest of the time. And no one is saying to blindly follow her. She isn't the one you're supposed to follow. Like I said before, Sr White advocates a life of self sacrifice. People don't like that and so to avoid what she teaches, she's cast into the false prophet bucket. Strangely enough, nothing she teaches contradicts the scriptures.
And yes, I know the arguments for the "wine" issue, and the "meat" issues. And I stand my ground in saying that from my understanding of scripture, and from what she says, the two are in harmony.
Here are some of her comments regarding photos.
These photographs cost money. Is it consistent for us, knowing the work that is to be done at this time, to spend God's money in producing pictures of our own faces and the faces of our friends? Should not every dollar that we can spare be used in the upbuilding of the cause of God? These pictures take money that should be sacredly devoted to God's service; and they divert the mind from the truths of God's word. {RH, September 10, 1901 par. 3}
This making and exchanging photographs is a species of idolatry. Satan is doing all he can to eclipse heaven from our view. Let us not help him by making picture‑idols. We need to reach a higher standard than these human faces suggest. The Lord says, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Those who claim to believe in Christ need to realize that they are to reflect His image. It is His likeness that is to be kept before the mind. The words that are spoken are to be freighted with heavenly inspiration. {RH, September 10, 1901 par. 4}
....
Every dollar is required in the work of saving souls. The money invested by the professed people of God in getting pictures made of human faces would support several missionaries in the field. Many small streams, when put together, swell into a large river. {RH, September 10, 1901 par. 9}
The youth have their hearts filled with the love of self. This is manifested in their desire to see their faces daguerreotyped by the artist; and they are not satisfied with being once represented, but sit again and again for their picture, each time hoping that the last will excel all their previous efforts and appear really more beautiful than the original. Their Lord's money is squandered in this way, and what is gained? Merely their poor shadow upon paper. The hours that should have been devoted to prayer are occupied upon their own poor selves; precious hours of probation are thus wasted. {1T 500.2} [1855-1868]
We have a constant contest with idolatry. Many things which gratify the lust of the eye are taking precious time and stealing away precious money. The senses are pleased but God is robbed both of time and money. I am pained to see the photographs multiplied and hanging everywhere. {1888 887.3} [January 22, 1891]
However, here are her comments about her own photographic endeavors:
We received yours [i.e., letter] which contained the number of pictures to be sent. They are slow in getting them out. We send from Ingelson's seven each. We sent from Lathrop's and Dunham's, six each. You will see that Lathrop has the preference. I thought that mine from Ingelson's was perfect, but I did not think yours was good. I have just received half a dozen from Lathrop's and Dunham's of mine. It is the judgment of all that this last is far better than Ingelson's. What do you think? We have a few of the small size of yours, but none yet of mine. {8MR 76.1}
Lathrop is as pleased a man as you ever saw with the pictures, especially of you. He says he will sell you the negative for five hundred dollars. Beside what we take, it will bring him that much custom. He thinks Ingelson's a flat affair. He [Lathrop] has your picture in the window for show.--Letter 1a, 1876, p. 1. (To James White, March 24, 1876.) {8MR 76.2}
In regard to our pictures, how many shall we order? Dunham gave me mine as well as yours--one dozen each. This is liberal, I think. Everyone thinks these last [pictures] from Dunham's are perfect. What is your judgment? Lucinda's are not yet finished. No orders, he says, were left for him, but one dozen will be finished in a short time.--Letter 3, 1876, pp. 3, 4. (To James White, April 4, 1876.) {8MR 76.3}
I have just gotten the picture Dunham has made. I do not like it. Shall not order any till you see it and send your opinion of it.--Letter 12, 1876, p. 1. (To James White, April 21, 1876.) {8MR 76.4}
In regard to my small picture, I did sit once again, but the picture was not good. Will try it again. Mary and Willie did not get good pictures, but they will try it again.--Letter 15, 1876. (To James White, April 27, 1876.) {8MR 77.1}
I do not think I shall ever get a picture to equal the one Dunham has made for me. He says I had better have the large one put on a small card. What do you think of this plan?--Letter 17, 1876, p. 2. (To James White, April 30, 1876.) {8MR 77.2}
Father, I am sure, has confidence in you. We often hear him speak of you and Emma with pleasure in high terms. He shows your pictures and he calls you two his "canaries."--Letter 22, 1879, p. 1. (To Edson White, July 1, 1879.) {8MR 77.4}
If you have Father's pictures, please bring them. I want to show them. My pocket album I left at Healdsburg.--Letter 15, 1882, p. 1. (To W. C. White, May 23, 1882). {8MR 77.5}
Well, Addie [Walling], I would be pleased to have you get your picture taken and write to May [Walling] to do the same. I will settle the bills. I want to see the faces of my children once more.--Letter 101, 1886, p. 4. (To Addie Walling, July 21, 1886.) {8MR 79.2}
she must have blinded you good
Not at all. That's just the way things go. Didn't Christ say that a house divided against itself cannot stand? If that indeed is true, than how could Ellen have been used by God and Satan simultaneously?
Would you say that the same thing applied to Joseph Smith, Russel and other founders of religious groups...
How did we get to this point?Why do you call other churches Babylon?
I can't find where I wrote that we do not engage in any debates--just that when it's clear that someone doesn't want to hear what we have to say--than why get on that hamsters wheel?? Every christian has the order from Christ to teach all nations--and all are doing it--no question our message is different--and we present it--who says we want to be left alone in the world of christian thought??--for crying out loud, we have tv programs and we have countless seminars and are forever passing out literature. One thing we are not is quiet!! I just said it's nice to go to church and not have to argue there, too----I should have added--but we can't get away from it even there! Maybe you like endless debates, I for one do not. But I do voice my opinion, just as you do. "Other sheep have I which are not of this fold."---We stand on the word of God--just as you claim to do. Now, is there anything that I can say that is going to change your mind about an everlasting burning hell, about the sabbath, about the state of the dead?--We give you our scriptures, you give us yours, and we've been doing that over and over and over with no one budging and there comes a time when someone has enough and says "I leave you to God" and walks away and goes on to the next person. I mean, don't you get tired of saying the same thing with the same person? When I stand before God I really do not want Him asking me "How many times, by how many people, did you need to have it explained to you?" When He says--"I said to remember the 7th day--why didn't you?" What will you say?--You can quote what you always do and I will quote the 4th commandment and we'll let Him decide, 'cause right now, neither of us is budging!
I'd say that about any false teacher. It's sad, but it's the truth. Either God is leading, and God can lead someone who is in error, so long as they are moving towards truth, or they are deceived by the adversary.
How did we get to this point?
Not at all.did you just admit egw was a false teacher?
the whole thing was in regard to the house, cause you somehow (though unexplainable to me) made the connection between a house that is divided and EGW...
Not at all.
Ellen's teachings are for the uplifting of the kingdom of God. They teach against sin and selfishness. How could she be used by Satan to undermine his tactics? That's why I made the statement about a house divided. And even still, how does that correlate to other churches being Babylon?
True indeed. The Devil always mixes some truth with his error, this makes it more acceptable. Speaking some truth however does not mean that you are being lead by God. So either Sr White was wholly being lead by God, or she was a liar, self-deceived, and working for the devil. No two ways about it.the bible explicitly tells us that the devil knows righteousness as well...
Oh...ok. Still not sure how you made that leap, but it's cool. And we don't teach that other churches are Babylon. Scripture declares that there is one harlot (an apostate church) and that she has daughters (other churches similar to the apostate one).other churches also teach against sin that is why I made the correlation...
the bible explicitly tells us that the devil knows righteousness as well...
other churches also teach against sin that is why I made the correlation...
If Adventists spend money on evangelism programs (and they do) why wouldn't they want free advertising right here? Lurkers do come here. You may think of it as debate with the same people. But folks who pass by also see these discussions and think about what is said. If you believe your position is correct then you should welcome discussion on these issues.
On the other hand, it appears Adventists want to call others to test their doctrines by the Bible but then shy away from defending their own doctrines by the Bible when confronted with folk who are acquainted with their teachings.
Not at all. That's just the way things go. Didn't Christ say that a house divided against itself cannot stand? If that indeed is true, than how could Ellen have been used by God and Satan simultaneously?
Who seeks to divide Christianity more that Adventists? Doesn't Ellen call non-SDA Christians harlots?
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