MJ: Denomination or Religion?

[Henaynei]

I too had heard reports of MJ Jews living in Israel, even with large congregations. However, when I had a friend of mine who lives in Jerusalem check out some of these places, it turned out not to be true in the slightest.

my rabbi, a South African Jewish man who lived in Israel for 13 years says it is so. And we have had visitors from Israel, Messianic *Jews,* who also say it is so. They even brought news reports from Israel several years ago where a group of the Orthodox had attacked a MJ synagogue, throwing trash and things at the members and their children when they tried to leave the building, etc.

So their presence seems to be felt by those actually living there


but there is enough he said:she said going on around here, I'm content to leave this alone.

 

[Ivy]

I too had heard reports of MJ Jews living in Israel, even with large congregations. However, when I had a friend of mine who lives in Jerusalem check out some of these places, it turned out not to be true in the slightest.

Then I guess my friends who are MJ congregational leaders in Jerusalem are mirages. Funny thing, they were my next door neighbors for years and I attended their goodbye party when they left to make aliyah.

 

[simchat_torah]

Oh, I don't dispute that individuals exist, but I certainly don't think a "plethera" exists... or entire congregations.

 

[Henaynei]

men refused to believe in the river horse or the rhinoceros because they had never seen one themselves and were unwilling to take the testimony of those who had ... we are all like that over something or another

 

[ChavaK]

1) almost all the MJs in Israel are Jews.

Well, given that Jews make up the majority of the
population, that is no surprise As a whole, the
vast majority of those involved in MJ are gentile...

2) as to why more gentiles than Jews.... demographics - there have always been more gentiles than Jews

But why are gentiles drawn to a belief that was
developed specificaly to attract Jews......?

 

[ChavaK]

Then I guess my friends who are MJ congregational leaders in Jerusalem are mirages. Funny thing, they were my next door neighbors for years and I attended their goodbye party when they left to make aliyah.

Interesting that they could make aliyah...it is against
the lawa the secular Israeli courts have established...

 

[Henaynei]

Well, given that Jews make up the majority of the
population, that is no surprise As a whole, the
vast majority of those involved in MJ are gentile...



But why are gentiles drawn to a belief that was
developed specifically to attract Jews......?

it was not originally "developed" to "attract Jews" - in fact when it originally started out those standing at the foot of the mountain were "a mixed multitude" and there have ever been gentiles called by G-d to sojourn with Israel, to stand along side and even be a part of her ... G-d hasn't changed but along with the wheat one always gets the tares as well. Some tares are easy to spot but only the Master of the Threshing Floor can finally tell the difference and make the separation ...

 

[ChavaK]

it was not originally "developed" to "attract Jews" - in fact when it originally started out those standing at the foot of the mountain were "a mixed multitude" and there have ever been gentiles called by G-d to sojourn with Israel, to stand along side and even be a part of her ... G-d hasn't changed but along with the wheat one always gets the tares as well. Some tares are easy to spot but only the Master of the Threshing Floor can finally tell the difference and make the separation ...

We will have to differ....I view the messianic movement
as a modern day invention designed to evangelize Jews... but attracting gentiles instead.
By the way, Happy Early Birthday!

 

[visionary]

Nowhere has the growth been more dramatic than in Israel itself. In a recent survey, Kai Kjaer-Hansen, International Coordinator of the Lausanne Consultation on Jewish Evangelism, and his team profiled more than 80 Messianic congregations and house groups.

http://www.ad2000.org/shalom6.htm

 

[ChazakEmunah]

Actually, Henaynei, Chava is right. The modern Messianic movement was developed in order to evangelize Jews. You may not view it as such, but having known many of the leaders in that movement, they are always discussing evangelization as a top priority. Further, many organizations, Jews for Je*us, Chosen People Ministries, etc... were all designed to evangelize Jews. The problem now facing the Messianic movement is that this plan backfired. Instead of bringing in Jews, it brought in Gentiles!

 

[A_Pioneer]

I suppose the Way was a mirage also, the prototype of the movement?!

BTW you seem to be mixing MJ with Jews for Jesus.

Shalom Alechem

 

[ChazakEmunah]

I suppose the Way was a mirage also, the prototype of the movement?!

BTW you seem to be mixing MJ with Jews for Jesus.

Shalom Alechem

Interestingly enough, the Essenes were also called "The Way." I think what we're trying to say is that it started off as an evangelization effort and it still is to a large extent, though at this point it is pretty diverse.

 

[Henaynei]

Todah for the birthday greeting

We will have to differ....I view the messianic movement as a modern day invention designed to evangelize Jews... but attracting gentiles instead.
By the way, Happy Early Birthday!

well, firstly I was referring to Judaism, not MJism above ....

2ndly yes we will have to disagree on the origins of MJism. POV - historically it's resurgence blossomed when Jewish people who have accepted Jesus as Messiah began to question why they had to deny who they were to serve and worship the Jewish Messiah. Originally they called themselves Hebrew Christians and were upstanding members of churches, most notable in Europe (if you are ever able to do so you should read a paper written by Mark Levy in 1909 that he addressed to the Hebrew Christian Alliance, it was WAY before it's time!). Soon others questioned why they had to take on the Hellenistic culture to serve and worship the Jewish Messiah, why they could not worship the Jewish Messiah as Jews. These eventually took on the name Messianic Jews (it was actually first done by the youth at a Hebrew Christian Conference and they eventually got enough backing to put it to a vote). Thus what was once called the Hebrew Christian Alliance of America became known as the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America. As this became more well known Christians were drawn to it, some stuck, most did not - but either way the weight of demographics eventually tipped the scales in the direction of the gentile believers. (the above is a *very* rough sketch)

This is NOT to say that there have not been folks who have tried to use the names and dress and customs to evangelize the Jewish people, but that has never been the thrust of the movement and the vast majority of MJism rejects those actions. Unfortunately that is unable to undo the damage to the reputation of MJism in some circles and neither is it able to prevent others from making the same offensive mistake.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[A_Pioneer]

Interestingly enough, the Essenes were also called "The Way." I think what we're trying to say is that it started off as an evangelization effort and it still is to a large extent, though at this point it is pretty diverse.

I can only speak from what I have experienced, being rather long in the tooth, I am a relatively a Torah Tot, but when I came into the faith Messianic Jews were just that! Jews for Jesus is entirely a Christian for Christianizing Jews.
The New Pope while a Cardinal said that the ROC did not have a mission to the Jews, that God had their salvation well in hand.
It is my opinion that the Christians are just wrong and will not give up on their mission to convert Jews to Jesus.
The first step is to change their name from Christian to Messianic, but that will only happen at his coming!

Shalom Alechem

 

[GeratTzedek]

I suppose the Way was a mirage also, the prototype of the movement?!

BTW you seem to be mixing MJ with Jews for Jesus.

Shalom Alechem

Aaaarrrrgh! Those who shall not be named!

 

[GeratTzedek]

I can only speak from what I have experienced, being rather long in the tooth, I am a relatively a Torah Tot, but when I came into the faith Messianic Jews were just that! Jews for Jesus is entirely a Christian for Christianizing Jews.
The New Pope while a Cardinal said that the ROC did not have a mission to the Jews, that God had their salvation well in hand.
It is my opinion that the Christians are just wrong and will not give up on their mission to convert Jews to Jesus.
The first step is to change their name from Christian to Messianic, but that will only happen at his coming!

Shalom Alechem

Ahhhh, they can be taught. Remember, Catholics are Christians, and you just quoted Pope Benedict (who is following in the footsteps of JP2). If the mountain of Rome can be moved, so can other Christians.

 

[visionary]

Ahhhh, they can be taught. Remember, Catholics are Christians, and you just quoted Pope Benedict (who is following in the footsteps of JP2). If the mountain of Rome can be moved, so can other Christians.

Hahahahaha ...like a leopard can change its spots.

 

[muffler dragon]

Aaaarrrrgh! Those who shall not be named!

Are you re-enacting The Village?

 

[fremen]

It is also true, or at least so I have heard said by an Orthodox Rabbi, that most of the Essene sect converted to Christianity. It could be argued that several among the first Christians were of Essene background. John the apostle is a good example, and so is John the Baptist.

So it could be that this is why the Christian sect became known as "The Way."

Fremen

Interestingly enough, the Essenes were also called "The Way." I think what we're trying to say is that it started off as an evangelization effort and it still is to a large extent, though at this point it is pretty diverse.

 

[RebbeCohen]

Let us pray that MJ never becomes a religion... for then the Holy Spirit can not work all things new in us.

what a perfectly goyisha kopf concept.