MJ: Denomination or Religion?

[stone]

And why
do the gentiles involved in it continue to include
so many "non-Biblical aspects" of Judaism- both
religously and culturaly-in their faith when it is
not "biblical"?

Like what?

 

[Henaynei]

So few of those involved in the MJ movement are Jews....I would be more interested in knowing why so many gentiles are now getting involved in an expression (albeit an illegitimate expression) of Judaism, than Jews are.

1) almost all the MJs in Israel are Jews, and there are thousands of them.

2) as to why more gentiles than Jews.... demographics - there have always been more gentiles than Jews, except in Israel and with the rate of abortion among the Jews and the birth rate among the Arabs that is set to change within the next few years .....

 

[christianmomof3]

Why not just call it Messicainicism or Messiacism or
some such title....why continue to call it MJ when
it is so clearly different from Judaism? And why
do the gentiles involved in it continue to include
so many "non-Biblical aspects" of Judaism- both
religously and culturaly-in their faith when it is
not "biblical"? I guess I will never understand this...

I agree. That is one of the things I am trying to understand about the MJ group. I origninally thought that Messianic Jews would be people like me - people who are Jews who are now Christians because we believe that Jesus is the Messiah - Jews who are now born-again.
To my suprise I have found that MJ is mostly a bunch of gentiles who dress up like Jews and try to take on the Jewish culture.

I have read that the MJ religion wants to go back to what the Bible says and not have the pagan things that were introduced into Christianity. That is great! That is wonderful! I agree!

But, the Jewish culture is not from the Bible.
So why does Messianic Judaism try to immitate or take on the Jewish culture?

Learning yiddush terms and Hebrew terms and sprinkling them into your converstation does not make you more religious or more Jewish.

Cooking and eating traditional Jewish Kosher food does not make you Jewish either.

In fact, Jewish Kosher is not the same as Biblical Kosher anyway.

Jewish Kosher goes beyond what is in the Bible about dietary laws.
So why do so many MJs keep Kosher according to the Rabbinical Jewish rules?

The star of David is a symbol of Judaism - not of Christianity - why does MJ use it?

Why do MJs think they need to learn and sing traditional Jewish songs?

Why do they think they have to use the Hebrew language and Hebrew terminlolgy?

Why do they call the buildings they meet in "Synagogues"?

 

[simchat_torah]

I too had heard reports of MJ Jews living in Israel, even with large congregations. However, when I had a friend of mine who lives in Jerusalem check out some of these places, it turned out not to be true in the slightest.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I agree. That is one of the things I am trying to understand about the MJ group. I origninally thought that Messianic Jews would be people like me - people who are Jews who are now Christians because we believe that Jesus is the Messiah - Jews who are now born-again.
To my suprise I have found that MJ is mostly a bunch of gentiles who dress up like Jews and try to take on the Jewish culture.

I have read that the MJ religion wants to go back to what the Bible says and not have the pagan things that were introduced into Christianity. That is great! That is wonderful! I agree!

But, the Jewish culture is not from the Bible.
So why does Messianic Judaism try to immitate or take on the Jewish culture?

Learning yiddush terms and Hebrew terms and sprinkling them into your converstation does not make you more religious or more Jewish.

Cooking and eating traditional Jewish Kosher food does not make you Jewish either.

In fact, Jewish Kosher is not the same as Biblical Kosher anyway.

Jewish Kosher goes beyond what is in the Bible about dietary laws.
So why do so many MJs keep Kosher according to the Rabbinical Jewish rules?

The star of David is a symbol of Judaism - not of Christianity - why does MJ use it?

Why do MJs think they need to learn and sing traditional Jewish songs?

Why do they think they have to use the Hebrew language and Hebrew terminlolgy?

Why do they call the buildings they meet in "Synagogues"?

I agree. That is one of the things I am trying to understand about the MJ group. I origninally thought that Messianic Jews would be people like me - people who are Jews who are now Christians because we believe that Jesus is the Messiah - Jews who are now born-again.
To my suprise I have found that MJ is mostly a bunch of gentiles who dress up like Jews and try to take on the Jewish culture.

I agree for the most part. What we need to do as a community is try to come to some kind of agreement per say on why we keep Torah.

In other words if keeping Torah doesn't save you then why do we keep it?

Our Torah observance is not to precede our salvation experience and is not more important than knowing Yeshua. There could possibly be many people who are disappointed and who were “Torah observant” when they are not allowed into the Messiah’s Kingdom.

In fact, Jewish Kosher is not the same as Biblical Kosher anyway.

I would agree.

Why do they call the buildings they meet in "Synagogues"?

Well we might be stretching this here. People were meeting in synagogues every Sabbath. I don't have a problem calling it church in the true sense.

As I said before Messianic Judaism isn't Orthodox Judaism. It is a different sect.

Marc

 

[stone]

Learning yiddush terms and Hebrew terms and sprinkling them into your converstation does not make you more religious or more Jewish.

Cooking and eating traditional Jewish Kosher food does not make you Jewish either.

In fact, Jewish Kosher is not the same as Biblical Kosher anyway.

Jewish Kosher goes beyond what is in the Bible about dietary laws.
So why do so many MJs keep Kosher according to the Rabbinical Jewish rules?

As someone that makes the claim to be on the outside of the movement looking in, i'm curious as to where you are gathering your information? You make the claim that so many gentiles are rabbinically kosher? Why do you use the words, "so many"? How do you know that there are so many that are rabbinically kosher?

The star of David is a symbol of Judaism - not of Christianity - why does MJ use it?

We are a torah observant movement. I've observed that this organization caters to Jews. With those two factors alone, we have every right to.

Why do MJs think they need to learn and sing traditional Jewish songs?

No one thinks that they need to learn or sing traditional jewish songs. We rather enjoy it and the spirit that accompanies us.

Why do they think they have to use the Hebrew language and Hebrew terminlolgy?

Why do they call the buildings they meet in "Synagogues"?

No body thnks that they have to use the Hebrew language and terminology. As i mentioned, we are Torah observant, how else can we have a torah service if not in Hebrew?

When we have services on Shabbat, and its all torah based, then it is a synagogue. Our difference is that we know Y-shua is the messiah, just as you know.

 

[stone]

I too had heard reports of MJ Jews living in Israel, even with large congregations. However, when I had a friend of mine who lives in Jerusalem check out some of these places, it turned out not to be true in the slightest.

Don't they more of less remain underground in Israel to avoid persecution?

 

[christianmomof3]

As someone that makes the claim to be on the outside of the movement looking in, i'm curious as to where you are gathering your information? You make the claim that so many gentiles are rabbinically kosher? Why do you use the words, "so many"? How do you know that there are so many that are rabbinically kosher?

Ok, why do any gentile Messianic Jews keep rabinically kosher? What is the reason that the MJ religion would promote that?

 

[stone]

Ok, why do any gentile Messianic Jews keep rabinically kosher? What is the reason that the MJ religion would promote that?

lol, its not promoted. If one chooses to observe the writeings of the Talmud, they are not discouraged. It's something that one takes upon themselves by their own free will.

Why do you says its promoted? Has it been pushed upon you by someone from the MJ movement? I seriously dought it. As someone on the inside, I've never seen this that you claim. There are some within the movement that do keep it and that's the reason for distinguishing luncheon's as dairy or meat. Those that do observe it, are not alienated by the synagogue, they are respected.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

lol, its not promoted. If one chooses to observe the writeings of the Talmud, they are not discouraged. It's something that one takes upon themselves by their own free will.

Why do you says its promoted? Has it been pushed upon you by someone from the MJ movement? I seriously dought it. As someone on the inside, I've never seen this that you claim. There are some within the movement that do keep it and that's the reason for distinguishing luncheon's as dairy or meat. Those that do observe it, are not alienated by the synagogue, they are respected.

It also depends what congregation you go to.

You might have experienced an orthodox type congregation?

Marc

 

[ChazakEmunah]

Gotta disagree with you....Jews do not accept
MJ as a Jewish denomination. To claim it as
such may be seem as legitimate from a Christian
viewpoint, but not from a Jewish one.

Agreed.

 

[christianmomof3]

lol, its not promoted. If one chooses to observe the writeings of the Talmud, they are not discouraged. It's something that one takes upon themselves by their own free will.

Why do you says its promoted? Has it been pushed upon you by someone from the MJ movement? I seriously dought it. As someone on the inside, I've never seen this that you claim. There are some within the movement that do keep it and that's the reason for distinguishing luncheon's as dairy or meat. Those that do observe it, are not alienated by the synagogue, they are respected.

My children like your character's outfit. They just dressed my character.
I think I will start another thread to ask the differences between rabinical and biblical kosher.

 

[ChazakEmunah]

Messianic Judaism is a Sect of Judaism just as it was in the beginning. It has remained so and will continue to remain so. Whether our non believing brothers and sisters agree is pretty much irrlevant.

Fine and well, but there was never a sect of Judaism that was called 'messianic.' All Jews are 'messianic' by nature, in that we all hope for the Mashiakh.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Fine and well, but there was never a sect of Judaism that was called 'messianic.' All Jews are 'messianic' by nature, in that we all hope for the Mashiakh.

What was the main battle between the sects in the 1st century?

Marc

 

[simchat_torah]

Messianic Judaism is a Sect of Judaism just as it was in the beginning. It has remained so and will continue to remain so. Whether our non believing brothers and sisters agree is pretty much irrlevant.

I will grant you that the Netzarim were a legitimate sect in the first couple of centuries. However, what is tossed around today as "Messianic Judaism" has very little to do with that early sect, and looks nothing like it in the slightest.

 

[simchat_torah]

In fact, Jewish Kosher is not the same as Biblical Kosher anyway.

I know very few MJ's who follow the Orthodox way of Kashrut. In fact, most MJ's toss aside anything labelled "Rabbinic". There is a strong distaste amongst MJ's as a whole for any oral law whatsoever.

 

[simchat_torah]

But, the Jewish culture is not from the Bible.

No, but it is closely intertwined. Hebrew, the Jewish tongue, is the language of Biblical texts. Not to mention all Jewish life and "oral laws" are derived from the Torah and Tenach. Jewish lifestyle has developed hand in hand with the "bible" for many a millenia. To seperate the two would be devastatingly difficult, as the Jewish lifestyle is so closely intertwined with the Torah.

 

[stone]

It also depends what congregation you go to.

You might have experienced an orthodox type congregation?

Marc

I attend an orthodox congrgation and Talmud is not promoted. It is taught to you if you are looking to be taught.

 

[stone]

My children like your character's outfit. They just dressed my character.
I think I will start another thread to ask the differences between rabinical and biblical kosher.

The answer is simply Talmud vs. written torah

 

[stone]

My children like your character's outfit. They just dressed my character.

O yea, gotta have that shield. I get lots of rocks thrown at me.