Mixed Messages.....

[RND]

I just came upon this thread and I confess that I have thus far only read the first 3 pages of replies - I apologize in advance if my post is redundant.

8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55:7-9

John 16:33 "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." (emphasis added)

John 16:33 fairly well refutes the prosperity gospel and any others that are similar. Jesus states, quite plainly and unmistakebly, that we WILL have trouble.

I don't know why suffering is allowed for everyone. I am not God, and I see only a part of the picture - through a glass darkly, as it were. I don't think it is possible for finite man to fully grasp the nature of an infinite God.

I know that in my own life, the sexual abuse that I went through as a child (and the aftermath lived out in my lifestyle as an adult) have given me a deeper compassion for others and a deeper understanding of the nature of forgiveness.

I never went through a period of hating God, or blaming God. I just didn't believe He existed, period. I was saved in 2007 - where do I now think God was when I was child and after? I envision Jesus, seeing all, and weeping for me but also knowing that it would be used later in my life to reach others who were damaged and hurting.

I know this provides no answers for why there are starving children, mass murders, abused men, women and children, and the like.

I, personally, have to believe (based upon how my own suffering has been used for His glory) that in some way or another all suffering will be used to glorify God. I also think that Christians should be providing aid, comfort and ease in those situations - which, when done from the right motives, glorifies the Lord, does it not?

Welcome to the thread. I think you have made some excellent points, thank you for your honesty and perspective. I especially appreciate your heartfelt thought as to what you imagined Jesus doing when you were being tormented. I imagine He was also at the same time weeping for your tormentors as well; seeing that He was able to ask the Father to forgive the very people that were murdering Him.

 

[Avonia]

But certainly, things like hunger, poverty, neglect or abuse of children, yes, these things the human species brings upon itself collectively, and God or no God, the human species should act in concert to eliminate them.

Yes. And this is the point where Christian theology is horribly frustrating - we refuse to believe that we can address this systemically because of the presence of sin and a Heaven not present. In this way, we are slightly insane.

On another note . . .

While you are occupying an "Indeterminate quantum superposition" I am occupying the "interstitial space." Howdy.

 

[Adventtruth]

Not half as self-serving as the way you and RND have completely trashed this thread and made it impossible to continue discussing the OP and the subjects it raises for us. Why don't you two please pick up your private judgments against everyone else here, which no one but yourselves seem to be interested in or accord any worth or value to, and just simply go home? We would like P/M/FA to be open to anyone, but that does not mean anyone coming in may trash the threads or the subforum MEMBERS here any way they please.
You have overstayed your welcome, the both of you. Bickering and arguing over this fact and constant whinges of "but YOU ... YOU ... YOU did ..." only prove Moriah's point here.

Please show yourselves to the door.

Boy what a great exaggeration. The only point you have proved is that you are greatly mistaken about me.

AT

 

[RND]

...this is the point where Christian theology is horribly frustrating - we refuse to believe that we can address this systemically because of the presence of sin and a Heaven not present. In this way, we are slightly insane.

Avonia, in what way are you suggesting that "Christianity" doesn't address the scourges of society mentioned? When you say "we" are you saying that with a mouse in your pocket?

There are many in Christianity (not all of course), that are doing a tremendous amount to alleviate the suffering that is inherent with the human condition. And of course there are also those that are doing the same thing that aren't Christians.

What responsibilities do "non-Christian" religious movements have in missionary work? For example do Wiccans or Buddhists have a world missionary movement that brings food aide and/or medical relief to the less fortunate? What about those of Scientology or for that matter Satanists? Are these groups off the hook because they aren't Christians?

 

[Flibbertigibbet]

Welcome to the thread. I think you have made some excellent points, thank you for your honesty and perspective. I especially appreciate your heartfelt thought as to what you imagined Jesus doing when you were being tormented. I imagine He was also at the same time weeping for your tormentors as well; seeing that He was able to ask the Father to forgive the very people that were murdering Him.

Thank you for the welcome, RND and Avonia.

RND, I agree that he was also weeping for the person who abused me. Just as I, through the Spirit working in me, was able to forgive him as well.

And Avonia - I am no longer wounded. Some of the risky behaviors took care of themselves through sheer aging, I think, and not wanting to be controlled by my childhood once I understood where the behaviors stemmed from. The rest, including forgiveness, have been put behind me only through my relationship with Christ. It's been a wonderful experience, and one that I hope everyone will someday have. We all have been wounded, in one fashion or another.

 

[Avonia]

And Avonia - I am no longer wounded. Some of the risky behaviors took care of themselves through sheer aging, I think, and not wanting to be controlled by my childhood once I understood where the behaviors stemmed from. The rest, including forgiveness, have been put behind me only through my relationship with Christ. It's been a wonderful experience, and one that I hope everyone will someday have. We all have been wounded, in one fashion or another.

Reason to celebrate and give thanks!

 

[Avonia]

Avonia, in what way are you suggesting that "Christianity" doesn't address the scourges of society mentioned?

Christianity has done a great deal to help brothers and sisters. Please reread my post and add to it when you are ready.

Blessings.

 

[RND]

Thank you for the welcome, RND and Avonia.

RND, I agree that he was also weeping for the person who abused me. Just as I, through the Spirit working in me, was able to forgive him as well.

What an absolutely wonderful testimony! May the Lord continue to bless and keep you until the day of His return!

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Yes. And this is the point where Christian theology is horribly frustrating - we refuse to believe that we can address this systemically because of the presence of sin and a Heaven not present. In this way, we are slightly insane.

Not all of us. Just Republicans and orthodox capitalists.

While you are occupying an "Indeterminate quantum superposition" I am occupying the "interstitial space." Howdy.

Yeah? How's that workin' out for you Avonia?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Boy what a great exaggeration. The only point you have proved is that you are greatly mistaken about me.

Well it did see some worthwhile contributions early on from you engaging in the subject. So if it bes truly mistaken then you have its apologies. And it will admit to contributing to derails as well. Life bes too short to bicker on & on.... How about we all just get back on topic now?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

This is often called "The Wounded Healer."

Thanks for joining the conversation!

Another one btw. well met, Flibber

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

the unspoken c) which some may not be prepared for, God expects that humans act to resolve human problems....

would we be considering the atheist proposition here, (d) there bes no God?
not an atheist, just wondering how far we will be extending the theodicial parameters here.
given that Moriah has firsthand direct awareness of the "opposition" we could also consider some of His arguments here, IF you like (and if CF would permit that as purely an intellectual exercise without counting it a case of "promotion")

 

[Flibbertigibbet]

Another one btw. well met, Flibber

Thank you, also, for the welcome. Hey, did you notice I'm a Republican?

 

[AzA]

would we be considering the atheist proposition here, (d) there bes no God?
not an atheist, just wondering how far we will be extending the theodicial parameters here.
given that Moriah has firsthand direct awareness of the "opposition" we could also consider some of His arguments here, IF you like (and if CF would permit that as purely an intellectual exercise without counting it a case of "promotion")

I would be prepared to follow that up. In fact, I did recently have that conversation with myself while chanting in an unknown tongue, slaughtering a goat at midnight, and standing on one leg. Of course.

How, I asked myself, would I serve humanity if there were no God? I found that the truth or falsehood of the premise (the "if" statement) has no effect whatsoever on the abilities I have. It's completely unrelated.

So what should stop me from serving humanity as if there were no One else to act? Even if the premise on the table is not true, why should I not push ahead fully engaged? Certain fictions can have value if they challenge us to function at intented and actual potential.

As stated in another thread, though, the only reason to even consider such a mind game is the assumption that God is Other and apart. I don't hold that assumption as the sum of reality.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Thank you, also, for the welcome. Hey, did you notice I'm a Republican?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I would be prepared to follow that up. In fact, I did recently have that conversation with myself while chanting in an unknown tongue, slaughtering a goat at midnight, and standing on one leg. Of course.

Um ... you makesy fun of daimonizomai or something? *hurt look*
It bes talksy serious. He will speak to it and through it. He shares His heart with Moriah. We bes one.

How, I asked myself, would I serve humanity if there were no God? I found that the truth or falsehood of the premise (the "if" statement) has no effect whatsoever on the abilities I have. It's completely unrelated.
So what should stop me from serving humanity as if there were no One else to act? Even if the premise on the table is not true, why should I not push ahead fully engaged? Certain fictions can have value if they challenge us to function at intented and actual potential.

OK but that has to do with the atheist proposition yeah? Not what else Moriah bes talksy about... but yes it has already gone to that place, where it discovered what you speaks about what it puts in bold above...

As stated in another thread, though, the only reason to even consider such a mind game is the assumption that God is Other and apart. I don't hold that assumption as the sum of reality.

What mind game?
it does not understand. other and apart? it does not understand. explain please. Habitation does not comprehend "apart". Symbiote does not comprehend "other".

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Thank you for the welcome, RND and Avonia.

RND, I agree that he was also weeping for the person who abused me. Just as I, through the Spirit working in me, was able to forgive him as well.

And Avonia - I am no longer wounded. Some of the risky behaviors took care of themselves through sheer aging, I think, and not wanting to be controlled by my childhood once I understood where the behaviors stemmed from. The rest, including forgiveness, have been put behind me only through my relationship with Christ. It's been a wonderful experience, and one that I hope everyone will someday have. We all have been wounded, in one fashion or another.

Does this mean you embrace ossification?
We do not.
WE have diverse chronologies. Not tied to biophysical.
Never have been.

It has seen those things too with Him weeping.
Long time ago. It has visions. Others here do too. Probably most here do.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

it used to desire to serve humanity.

humanity crushed that desire.

bye.

 

[AzA]

Um ... you makesy fun of daimonizomai or something? *hurt look*

I think this is the second time today we have miscommunicated. No ill will. No target for thee. No malintention. Apologies.

What mind game?
it does not understand. other and apart? it does not understand. explain please. Habitation does not comprehend "apart". Symbiote does not comprehend "other".

The mind game of pretending that the All that Is is not... this is the mind game of which I spoke. It is a pretense and a fiction. Like wearing nightshades at noonday.

It is a good thing not to understand "other" or "apart". I don't think we were intended to understand it, much less seek it out or refuse to yield it.

 

[mva1985]

Moriah thanks for wrapping up the thread for me in a few posts.

And from post #92 (had to insert by hand)
Originally Posted by StormyOne

Originally Posted by mva1985

What about the fact that Paul prayed three times to have the thorn removed from his side, and God's answer was my grace is sufficient for thee?
​

what about it? You think that phrase would bring comfort to the family in the following story?

Jurors cringed, cried and some desperately looked away as they were shown a series of deeply disturbing and graphic videos taken by a convicted child killer as he tortured, sexually abused and nearly killed a 9-year-old boy.

Joseph Edward Duncan III, acting as his own attorney, had argued against playing the videos, saying it would turn jurors "into my victims" as they decide whether he should be executed.

Duncan kidnapped the boy, Dylan Groene, and his sister, Shasta, in May 2005 after murdering their older brother, their mother and her fiance in the Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, area. The two young children were taken deep into the Lolo National Forest, where they endured weeks of horrendous abuse at Duncan's hands.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/21/duncan...ref=mpstoryview
​

or do you think that phrase will help this girl?

First he saw the girl's eyes: dark and wide, unfocused, unblinking. She wasn't looking at him so much as through him.
She lay on a torn, moldy mattress on the floor. She was curled on her side, long legs tucked into her emaciated chest. Her ribs and collarbone jutted out; one skinny arm was slung over her face; her black hair was matted, crawling with lice. Insect bites, rashes and sores pocked her skin. Though she looked old enough to be in school, she was naked — except for a swollen diaper.
"The pile of dirty diapers in that room must have been 4 feet high," the detective said. "The glass in the window had been broken, and that child was just lying there, surrounded by her own excrement and bugs."
When he bent to lift her, she yelped like a lamb. "It felt like I was picking up a baby," Holste said. "I put her over my shoulder, and that diaper started leaking down my leg."
The girl didn't struggle. Holste asked, What's your name, honey? The girl didn't seem to hear.
He searched for clothes to dress her, but found only balled-up laundry, flecked with feces. He looked for a toy, a doll, a stuffed animal. "But the only ones I found were covered in maggots and roaches."



http://www.tampabay.com/features/hum...icle750838.ece
​

Sorry MVA, to me those kinds of answers seem inadequate....
​

Stormy,

In answer to this tragedy - I have no answer. Period. Right now we see through a glass darkly. One day these things will be revealed to us so that we may understand. But chances are not in this life time.

I still think that the text applies and helps us to see that God does allow bad things to happen or rather does not stop them from happening, and His answer is still the same trust Me, My grace is sufficient. He will help all those who call on Him. How He helps them is best left up to Him.

IMHO of course.