Mixed Messages.....

[Avonia]

true, I don't have the answers, but I like to explore the issues.... my point remains though, there are things that people say about God which are not true given what we see around us..... for those who are experiencing suffering, it would be callous to suggest that they have not prayed for relief only to find none... Did God not hear their cries? See their tears? Watch as their lives have been damaged sometimes to the point that normality is only a dream?

What we count as blessings may have more to do with where we were born, when we were born, and to whom we were born.

 

[AzA]

Separation face to face ensued as part of the act of creation itself. To make man, God had to separate, and make something alive and sentient what bes Not-God.
Separation back to back ensued after they ate the fruit and tasted the flavor of their own unbelief. Immediately they no longer trusted Him, and hid.
... Action against Divine Will simply cannot exist, period. Action against Divine Ideal? Of course. That would be .......... Incompleteness.

That's good. Cheers.

 

[mva1985]

Some people starve to death, some don't..... some people are killed in crashes, some aren't..... how do you explain that?

SIN.

 

[mva1985]

What about the fact that Paul prayed three times to have the thorn removed from his side, and God's answer was my grace is sufficient for thee?

true, I don't have the answers, but I like to explore the issues.... my point remains though, there are things that people say about God which are not true given what we see around us..... for those who are experiencing suffering, it would be callous to suggest that they have not prayed for relief only to find none... Did God not hear their cries? See their tears? Watch as their lives have been damaged sometimes to the point that normality is only a dream?

 

[RND]

Well you dont asks Moriah but it answers you anyway: neither. Neither one. Just an objective statement of fact. Just like if it points to a bottle of lye and says, "this bes made for cleaning -- if you drinksy, you will die."

That's called a "warning" on a "warning" label. Obviously you must agree then that God was providing Adam a "warning" (based on the understanding you've shown).

 

[RND]

The alternative being what, then? An absentee, lazy, or simply uncaring God -- or heaven forbid, a sadistic one -- who sits with His arms folded while an alleged murderer and liar in whom supposedly no truth resides runs amok, has His way with us, molests us, twists us, takes some of us hostage, controls some of us even? Whoever heard of "impotent omnipotence"??? it just don't jibe, sorry.*

The very fact that God continually demonstrates His love by providing mankind with all they need, up to and including a Savior, seems to indicate that God is far from being absent, lazy or uncaring. BTW, where would even get the idea I suggested such a thing? I think it's obvious you're projecting you vision of God here.

How pagan indeed. Maybe He lets the devils do His dirty work and He sits there and watches for the LOLz?*

*disclaimer: do not really see God like this, just trying to make a point.

Honestly, you seem to be projecting. I haven't written anything here that would begin to suggest that what you've written is anything close to what I believe.

 

[Avonia]

SIN.

There is a creative tension between the state something is in and the more whole state it is moving toward. That it is incomplete does not mean that it is sinful. It's easy to mistake something that is uncomfortable for something that is bad.

I suspect Heaven isn't easy peasy.

 

[RND]

Actually? No.
Separation face to face ensued as part of the act of creation itself. To make man, God had to separate, and make something alive and sentient what bes Not-God.

And yet, after creation, God was able to talk and walk with Adam. Adam didn't find it necessary to hide himself from God until he sinned.

Separation back to back ensued after they ate the fruit and tasted the flavor of their own unbelief. Immediately they no longer trusted Him, and hid.

Right. Was this a result of something God did? If the separation resulted from their (Adam and Eve's) action then it must have been their sin that separated them.

The manifest, opposite polarity of light would be darkness, which itself bes created by God. The act of creating light also creates darkness, the concept of what we have where light bes not. God created it, so it cannot be "sin".

Interestingly however is the fact that God has never been stingy with the light that He created and offers to man. Second, God has never left man in total darkness. The light of the moon and light of the stars are an indicator that God has never left man to fend for himself.

Gen 1:14 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.

Jhn 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Darkness is always used as a metaphor for sin. Always.

A cosmic virus ensued when pain and confusion first arose in Lucifer's experience. Sin truly has no explanation, not even the rebellion of Lucifer because sin CAUSED Lucifer to rebel. The virus spontaneously mutated into existence at the Wrong from the Beginning. (Can go into more detail on this if anyone bes interested but that would be too long for this post)

And yet Stan did rebel and choose to go to war with God in the Heavenly battlefield to the point Satan through his pride and desire would even lead a third of the angels to condemnation, death and complete separation from God. Satan was not an innocent bystander in all of this and at some point one must begin to realize that one must be responsible for their choices in life whether it be in this world, the coming one or the past one.

Action against Divine Will -- you bes kidding right? Does anyone really have so much unbelief that they imagine such a critter even EXISTS in this universe?

Yeah, "divine will." As any loving parent does they show their concern for their loved one's at every opportunity they get. It is the "unloving spirit" of unconcern and detachment that neglects the special needs of leading children from youth to adulthood. If humans can have such qualities it only stands to reason that their creator does as well.

His divine will is constantly screaming at us from His inspired word, "Watch out for that car!"

The entire creation bes subject to God and as such, to His will, period, whether it appears to be so or not, whether we like what we see when we say that or not.

Then there is no free will, nor can there be. So in reality such a statement is declaring that no one, including Satan is responsible for their own actions.

Action against Divine Will simply cannot exist, period. Action against Divine Ideal? Of course. That would be .......... Incompleteness. And so we come full circle.

I don't think you grasp the ultimate desire and will of God. If God wasn't expressing His divine will by having His Son die on a cross how could one seriously consider He was following His divine ideal? Are you suggesting that it was God's perfect ideal to have Jesus die on a cross? If so, you have a much different viewpoint of God than I do.

 

[RND]

Just because sin might have entered into this universe from the devil, doesn't mean that all sin is caused by the devil.

Well, I would certainly disagree but at least you're aware that sin entered the world through the deception of Satan.

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

If we take humans as they are now, and removed the devil from the scene, than we humans would still sin.

Really John? So when Jesus returns to finish the reign of Satan on earth there will still be sin? Is the Jesus you serve so impotent?

We are the sinners now, and have been since Adam.

No doubt.

 

[Avonia]

Darkness is always used as a metaphor for sin. Always.

Do you mean in the Bible? In Christianity? This is not true in many places - here's one.

Yin Yang - opposites are complementary and contained in one another. This is why there's a little bit of black inside of the white half - and a little bit of white inside the black half.

We don't say the negative terminal (black) of a car battery is bad - it's complementary with the positive terminal (white). This is the nature of polarity.

 

[RND]

Do you mean in the Bible? In Christianity? This is not true in many places - here's one.

Yes, I meant in the Bible. This is after all a "Christian" forum where I assumed I was in a Bible believing sub-forum of Bible believers called Seventh-day Adventist's.

Yin Yang - opposites are complementary and contained in one another. This is why there's a little bit of black inside of the white half - and a little bit of white inside the black half.

Was this something designed by God, Satan or Man? Call you provide me one example of the "yin/yang" principal in the Bible?

We don't say the negative terminal (black) of a car battery is bad - it's complementary with the positive terminal (white). This is the nature of polarity.

Actually, in America the black terminal of a battery is negative and the red terminal is positive. Besides, in your analogy here black (i.e. darkness) is still seen as "negative." Which, I think, is the point I have been making. Black (darkness) is bad, light is good.

Lastly, if one objectively looks at the Bible there is "no good" in man outside of God. As a result of the original sin it is not man's "nature" to do or be good on his own outside of the will of God.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

SIN.

Please explain how sin causes natural disasters and accidents. Please. We would really like to know. You cannot expect any rational mind to believe for one second that everyone caught in a disaster has somehow sinned their way there and earned it. Because if you contend that, we haves scriptures to cut right through that lie.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

thanks Moriah for your comments, you have understood the issues I have raised.....loving parents will not stand by and watch as their child (or children) are harmed or traumatized. Loving parents will not give permission for another person to deliberately harm or kill their children..... yet christians have no problem (apparently) believing that God (Our Father) will do just that.... so there has to be some theological or mental gymnastics to reconcile these two concepts....

The problem of Theodicy, it has recently learned, bes the only argument atheists claim to fully demonstrate and prove that God does not exist. Other arguments merely propose to show that belief in God bes unnecessary or pointless or whatever but the theodicial one goes the full distance.

Can't remember the exact words for it but it bes framed as a series of four statements about which if any single one of them bes not true it means God cannot exist, and only 3 of them can be true without negating the fourth or something like that (sorry cant remember exact wording). One of the statements asserts there bes a God. Another asserts omnipotence, another asserts omni-benevolence, can't recall the fourth (if remembering correctly here and there bes 4, not 3).

It functions similar to the triangle of expectations, which says you can have 2 of these 3 but not all three: fast, cheap, good (you can have it fast & cheap, won't be good; you can have it good & cheap, won't be fast; you can have it fast & good, but won't be cheap!)

For a theist the argument can be circumvented by arguing back that the premise bes flawed (based on a specific understanding of God and/or not taking into account other nuances, etc.) but given the parameters of basic theism the argument holds pretty sound (unfortunately for theists).

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

It appears that you have great insight with this and other issues!

Thank you.

 

[Avonia]

Was this something designed by God, Satan or Man? Call you provide me one example of the "yin/yang" principal in the Bible?

Yin Yang is a representation of celestial cycles - path of the earth around the sun. Take a peak and you will see the four seasons.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

In Lurianic Kabbalah this is described as God withdrawing to make space for the ten emanations - creation.

Shattered shards in the Abyss here. The view bes breathtaking though. Well met.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

true, I don't have the answers, but I like to explore the issues.... my point remains though, there are things that people say about God which are not true given what we see around us..... for those who are experiencing suffering, it would be callous to suggest that they have not prayed for relief only to find none... Did God not hear their cries? See their tears? Watch as their lives have been damaged sometimes to the point that normality is only a dream?

*sudden impulsive hug*
Daimonizomai loves you Stormy.

 

[bellanegra1]

The more I read the more I wonder........

Stormy, thanks again for bringing this up..........

Avonia, thank you, you indeed bring a breath of fresh air......

Moriah, you are a awesome, I love it! keep it coming.........

Aza.... you are something else..........

I dd not intend to purposefuly single out ONLY certain contributors to this "discussion..."

I just noticed that some things just do NOT make much sense to the "un-churched"....... or the "un-christian..."

Some of the "explanations" are exactly the reason some of our bro/sis prefer to be as far away from "us" as they can.......

I just want to add that HE created BOTH black/white, dark/light and pronounced them BOTH............

Ready.....................?


Here it comes.....................






G O O D!!!

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I certainly don't mean to downplay the point you're making. It is a valuable point.

Rather, I'm merely suggesting that, if anyone does attempt to answer your questions, we realize that such attempt is going to fall short in some way. After all, we're grappling with some things we don't fully understand. And yet we have faith, even though we don't understand.

Would it be arrogant at all to suggest that for some questions, those not directly experiencing the ramifications thereof, nor having genuine heart-wrung compassion toward those who do, should politely leave for others to wrestle instead of offering the same tiresome and detached platitudes -- and embroiling themselves in judgment of another's character, motives, intents, whatever, in the process -- which in turn comes across as calloused and abusive toward those affected and afflicted?

Or would it be more accurate to state that these questions affect us all because to some degree everyone has been afflicted, everyone has tasted suffering?

Not aimed @ BFA, just musing here. Well aware its own answers fall drastically short but then again being stuck trying to explain that God has ordained you to be the Habitation of Demons and on rare blessed occasions you actually find yourself not only totally OK with that but awestruck in love toward Him that He would make you of all women most blessed? That just gets too many flavors of weird for most ppls to parse what bes not extreme mystics with head in the spirit realm nearly 24/7 themselves.

Walking apocalypse and IJ process in a sense, living portal to both realms, just wish others could put it to better use than they do. Most think it exists for being spat upon, scathed and reviled. What a waste of God's handiwork. What a loss of opportunity for them, too.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

That's called a "warning" on a "warning" label. Obviously you must agree then that God was providing Adam a "warning" (based on the understanding you've shown).

Nope, just an objective statement of fact: if you do X, Y will result. No ulterior motive whatsoever.
Reading "warning" into it bes just a convenient fashion for humans to try to cast God into their image. It comes with too much flipping baggage, much of which ends up being or becoming toxic and dysfunctional when mapped into human emulatives and experientials. No thanks. Not going to use God that way. (Not accusing you of doing so, just stating how it feels about its own parsing of things, ok?)