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Missing Scriptures in Modern Versions

Fireinfolding

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That one is in the video 0:43:30 - 0:44:59
Hebrews 7:21
Douay-Rheims: But this is with an oath, by him that said unto him: The Lord hath sworn and he will not repent: Thou art a priest for ever.)

RSV-2P and RSV-2CE: Those who formerly became priests took their office without an oath, but this one was addressed with an oath, "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, 'Thou art a priest for ever.'"

NIV: but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: 'You are a priest for ever.'"

Thanks for that!!:thumbsup: Yeah they kept the word oath in there but the verse is from Psalms 110-1-4 why would they leave that part out? Jesus mentions The LORD said to my Lord and how David called him "Lord" and the apostles springboard off both that declaring Jesus the Son of God whom God hath made both Lord and Christ after that specific priesthood.

For example, you can the picture of Him better through the wording (OT and NT)

Psalm 110:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Psalm 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

Psalm 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Psalm 11:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

Psalm 110:5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

Caught here as welll...

Rev 6:15-16 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

So I would ask, is psalms (then) in the OT incorrect then if thats being deleted as if its an error in the NT if it confirms rather then contradicts it?

Know what I mean?
 
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Fireinfolding

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Melchisedek is present in the KJ and the Greek edition from which it was translated. It is not present in any current Greek text. Normally there are footnotes indicating which manuscripts have different readings. For 7:21 there are no footnotes. This indicates that there aren't enough Greek manuscripts that have Melchisedek for it to be worth citing the evidence for that reading.

Please remember that the edition prepared by Erasmus, on which KJ is largely based, was based on a small number of late Greek manuscripts. Since I can't find any analysis of the issue I can only guess. But it's fairly common for scribes to confuse two similar passages. I'd be willing to bet that a copyist was thinking of one of the other verses where Melchisedek is mentioned, e.g. 7:17.

The biggest problem with these discussions is when people assume that there are theological motivations for changes like this. There are not. No one is trying to remove the name of the order. It just doesn't happen to appear in this verse in the original Greek. They're correcting a mistake. If they wanted to remove it, they'd remove it from 7:17 as well.

But Hebrews would be quoting from the OT Hebrew wouldnt it? In the context from where that quote (in the OT) is where Melchisedek is mentioned, I just dont understand why they would touch it then.

I have never entered into a discussion like this, its my first time, however, no wonder folks might think theres another motivation (well, when I heard that). I didnt get that move.
 
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hedrick

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But Hebrews would be quoting from the OT Hebrew wouldnt it? In the context from where that quote (in the OT) is where Melchisedek is mentioned, I just dont understand why they would touch it then.

I have never entered into a discussion like this, its my first time, however, no wonder folks might think theres another motivation (well, when I heard that). I didnt get that move.

Sure, but it is quoted several times in that one passage from Heb. It's quite plausible that Heb might not use the whole quote each time. If you look, the context of 7:21 is about the oath. So the quote in 7:21 starts before the quote in 7:17. 7:21 includes the preceding clause about the oath, which 7:17 does not. But 7:21 stops one phrase earlier, because the point that's being made there doesn't involve Melchizedek.

The reason for "touching it" is honesty: the Greek doesn't have that phrase in 7:21. The translators are committed to translating the Greek honestly, even if the result is different from King James. Is that wrong?
 
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Fireinfolding

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Sure, but it is quoted several times in that one passage from Heb. It's quite plausible that Heb might not use the whole quote each time. If you look, the context of 7:21 is about the oath. So the quote in 7:21 starts before the quote in 7:17. 7:21 includes the preceding clause about the oath, which 7:17 does not. But 7:21 stops one phrase earlier, because the point that's being made there doesn't involve Melchizedek.

The reason for "touching it" is honesty: the Greek doesn't have that phrase in 7:21. The translators are committed to translating the Greek honestly, even if the result is different from King James. Is that wrong?

Thousands of years later they are just beginning to get the hang of honesty after all this time? And none of them are insync yet?
 
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hedrick

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Thousands of years later they are just beginning to get the hang of honesty after all this time? And none of them are insync yet?

Of course not. It is very likely that introducing Melchisidek was a simple copying error. No dishonesty involved. In the 16th Cent they had only a few recent manuscripts, all from the same family. They had the error. So the Greek text prepared then was an honest work.

As more manuscripts were discovered, and it became clear that some of the text used by the KJV was wrong, newer translations used that.

The only time honesty becomes an issue is today. Do we use the best information we know, or do we stick with an old text that's got an error in it?

Note: I'm not accusing you of dishonesty. However I'm not sure I'm as charitable with the NKJV translators.
 
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Fireinfolding

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Of course not. It is very likely that introducing Melchisidek was a simple copying error. No dishonesty involved. In the 16th Cent they had only a few recent manuscripts, all from the same family. They had the error. So the Greek text prepared then was an honest work.

As more manuscripts were discovered, and it became clear that some of the text used by the KJV was wrong, newer translations used that.

The only time honesty becomes an issue is today. Do we use the best information we know, or do we stick with an old text that's got an error in it?

Note: I'm not accusing you of dishonesty. However I'm not sure I'm as charitable with the NKJV translators.

Im not even talking about one translation hendrick, did you watch all the stuff they are swiping out (like full paragraphs out)? And adding into the various listed? I was simply pointing out 1 which I felt was a shady (to me, personally) and shut my mouth about the others I felt were because I didnt want to wrangle over them. Given it was a quote found in the OT anyway, why bother removing it now? Because if they did not see the "name" Melchezedik there (so many years ago) but gave themselves the liberty to add it (then) I cant tell what they are doing. How'd a name like that accidently appear in the text, but all the sudden the ink of it vanished (or something?) And they are now like, Nahhh... that wasnt REALLY in there (so lets erase it altogether now). If it wasnt there to begin with whats it doing there at all now? So it popped out of thin air (back then) only to be given dissapearing ink thousands of years later... Sorry I'd naturally find that sorta shady (or let me rather say) a little suspicious. I dont get how something (not there in reality) "appears" (anyway) and then thousands of years later is as" an "oopsie" (no "its not")

I just personally dont get it, if you do, and its all good and dandy to you, thats great. I have expressed how its percieved by me. But I sure didnt want it to become a wrangling back and forth on how I perceive it.
 
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hedrick

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Given it was a quote found in the OT anyway, why bother removing it now? Because if they did not see the "name" Melchezedik there (so many years ago) but gave themselves the liberty to add it (then) I cant tell what they are doing. How'd a name like that accidently appear in the text, but all the sudden the ink of it vanished (or something?)

They bothered because it's the job of translators to give the best possible translation of the Greek. Do you really want them to say "let's not bother getting this right?"

There are *lot* of manuscripts of the Bible, so scholars have plenty of opportunity to see what kinds of errors copyists make. In many cases it's obvious which reading is right, because it's just one copy. There are certain standard types of error. One common one is that when two verses end the same way, the scribe's eye goes to the wrong place on the page and skips from one verse to the other.

Another common type of error is that when similar texts appear several places, the scribe remembers the other one. E.g. Matthew and Luke are very similar. There are times when a copy of Luke ends up with the wording from Matthew or visa versa. That's almost certainly what happened here. The scribe copied verse 21 but remembered the ending from 17.

Remember, the way copying worked, either the scribe had to read one copy, and then move his eyes to the other one, remembering what he had read, or someone else would read the document while the scribe wrote. These processes both have dangers, although they're somewhat different.

So we have a number of early copies where 17 and 21 end differently, and late ones where they end the same. Most scholars would conclude that it's much more likely that someone remembered 17 and thus made 21 look the same, rather than the opposite theory that someone dropped the reference to Melchisedek in 21 in the early copies. Judgements like this are based on all kinds of things, e.g. which types of error are most common, and which manuscripts are known to have which kinds of errors. E.g. apparently it's more common for scribes to add words than the remove them. That's one reason that recent texts are often slightly shorter. It's not that we're omitting things, but that we're correcting errors, many of which added things.

This kind of judgement always has to be made. The KJ is based on this kind of thought process as well. The person who put together the Greek just didn't have access to as many Greek manuscripts, nor to manuscripts as old as we have now. Partly because there weren't as many manuscripts available, the practice of reconstructing them wasn't as well developed in the 16th Cent as it is now.

It's kind of ironic, actually. The KJ is largely based on a Greek text by Erasmus, a well-known humanist working in the 16th Cent. But he really didn't intend to produce an authoritative Greek text at all. His goal was to produce a new and better Latin translation. In order to do that, he had to come up with a Greek text to start from. He published that text with his Latin, so that others could verify that his Latin translation was correct. Unfortunately his editing was rushed, probably because of publication deadlines. He also had a tendency at times to use the Latin as the basis and translate it back into Greek, though I doubt that that's the case here. He succumbed to pressure in one case. His initial version omitted 1 John 5:7-8, on the quite reasonable grounds that it wasn't present in any of the Greek manuscripts he had. It had entered the Latin in the 6th or 7th Cent as a "gloss". That is, someone apparently added it as a comment in the margin, but eventually some copyist mistakenly put it in the main text. But for a later addition he gave into pressure and accepted it. (There are some stories about how that happened but I'm not sure they are reliable.) This is one of the known ways that extra things sometimes entered the text. It's another reason that modern texts are sometimes a bit shorter than the KJ. We've got better evidence now and can often detect things that entered as glosses.

Again, his Greek was a great advance. Previously the Church had been using a Latin translation that had lots of errors. His new version fixed most of them, and is considered one of the reasons for the Reformation. But it is certainly not perfect.
 
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Unix

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I was editing my post...
Complete rating of English Bibles 18th-21st century +Swedish & Finnish 18th-20th cent
... and had to break it into two now

Mt was written early, before almost any other books of the NT, only books such as James and Galatians were earlier:
In-depth study - page 2 - Christian Forums
In-depth study - Page 3 - Christian Forums

I believe in the Trinity, plus the post contains references to where the term propitiation has been deliberately de-emphasized in modern Bibles:
Proof that the ESV, NIV, NASB are "Catholic bibles" - Page 11 - Christian Forums

What I would be if I would be Protestant:
Proof that the ESV, NIV, NASB are "Catholic bibles" - Page 12 - Christian Forums

...continued on January 7. 2012 at 3:24 PM local time GMT+1h
 
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