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Missing Mosaic Laws...

Moral Orel

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How do you know that divinely inspired scripture wouldn't have omissions? Other scripture specifically states that some knowledge is intentionally hidden from us for a specific purpose. So to claim that something cannot be inspired by God simply because it does not include something you think should be there is flawed.
I wouldn't consider morals about how we are supposed to act "knowledge", personally, would you? We're talking about the list of rules that God said was necessary to run a just society in the past. Some of them were specifically about worshiping and honoring God, but plenty of them were mundane laws about justice on Earth. Is there any reason you can think of that God would hide this moral from His people so that sexual abuse went undeterred? Otherwise this answer amounts to not much more than "He works in mysterious ways".

Second, the Hebrew language did not have a specific word for "rape". The word used was "to lay with against their will" which we would define a rape. So it would be natural that their wouldn't be a specific law prohibiting something that their was no word for.
There is a phrase that means "to lay with against their will" not a word. Otherwise they would have a word for rape. That logic is a bit backwards to me. They invented a word for adultery which could have been surmised in the phrase "to lay with another man's wife" (since that's how they defined it back then). So, and true, this is speculation, it seems like they would invent words for things that they find important. But to think that they wouldn't make a law for something because they don't have a word for it? Why?

But, as you say, they did have a phrase that they used to describe it, but they only outlawed it in specific instances against specific types of women. They understood that sometimes women were forced against their will, but they only outlawed it some of the time. The only time that it is mentioned in the Law is when there is a man who is financially harmed by the woman being forced. Does this seem interesting to you?
 
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I wouldn't consider morals about how we are supposed to act "knowledge", personally, would you? We're talking about the list of rules that God said was necessary to run a just society in the past. Some of them were specifically about worshiping and honoring God, but plenty of them were mundane laws about justice on Earth. Is there any reason you can think of that God would hide this moral from His people so that sexual abuse went undeterred? Otherwise this answer amounts to not much more than "He works in mysterious ways".

The short answer is that God did not "hide this moral from his people". This will explain:

The Bible does address the issue of rape. As expected, when the Bible mentions the crime of rape, it is depicted as a gross violation of God’s design for the treatment of the human body (Genesis 34). The Bible condemns rape whenever it is mentioned. For example, there is a particular passage in the laws given to the nation of Israel before entering the Promised Land under Joshua’s leadership. This passage (Deuteronomy 22:13-29) spoke directly against forcing a woman into a sexual encounter against her will, or what we know today as rape. This command was meant to protect women and to protect the nation of Israel from committing sinful actions.

Deuteronomy 22:25-27 mentioned the punishment the Mosaic Law commanded for a man who raped a woman. The man was to be killed by stoning while the woman was considered innocent. Though the Mosaic Law was for the nation of Israel during the time of Moses, the principle is clear that rape was sinful in the eyes of God and led to the most extreme punishment possible—death for the rapist.

There are some difficult passages in the Old Testament, however, in relation to this issue. Critics of the Bible are quick to point to Numbers 31 (and other similar passages) in which the Israelites were allowed to take female captives from nations they conquered. Critics make the accusation that this is an example of the Bible condoning, or even promoting, rape. However, the passage says nothing about raping the captive women. It is wrong to assume that the captive women were to be raped. Again, Deuteronomy 22:25-27 condemns rape, even advocating the death penalty for perpetrators of rape. In the Numbers 31 passage the soldiers were commanded to purify themselves and their captives (verse 19). Rape would have violated this command (see Leviticus 15:16-18). The women who were taken captive are never referred to as sexual objects. Did the captive women likely eventually marry amongst the Israelites? Yes. Is there any indication that rape or sex slavery was forced upon the women? Absolutely not.

In the New Testament, rape is not mentioned directly, but within the Jewish culture of its writers, rape would have been considered as sexual immorality. As such, both Jesus and His followers (including the apostle Paul) spoke against sexual immorality, even offering it as justifiable grounds for divorce when a person actively committed sexual acts outside of the bond of marriage (Matthew 5:32). This would not, however, apply to the victim of rape, only the one who committed the act.

Further, the New Testament is clear that Christians are to obey the laws of their governing authorities (Romans 13). Not only is rape morally wrong; it is also wrong according to the laws of our governing authorities. As such, anyone who would commit this crime should expect dire consequences, including arrest and imprisonment.

To the victims of rape, much care and compassion must be offered. God’s Word often speaks about helping those in need and in vulnerable situations. Christians would do well to practice these teachings and model the love and compassion of Christ by assisting victims of rape in any way possible.

To those who have committed rape, we must remember two things. First, people are responsible for the sins they commit. Second, however, no one is beyond the grace of God. Even in the lives of those who have committed the vilest of sins, God can extend forgiveness to any who will repent and turn from their evil ways (1 John 1:9). This does not remove the need for punishment according to the law, but it can offer hope, even to those whose sins have made them outcasts in the eyes of others.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-rape.html

There is a phrase that means "to lay with against their will" not a word. Otherwise they would have a word for rape. That logic is a bit backwards to me. They invented a word for adultery which could have been surmised in the phrase "to lay with another man's wife" (since that's how they defined it back then). So, and true, this is speculation, it seems like they would invent words for things that they find important. But to think that they wouldn't make a law for something because they don't have a word for it? Why?

But, as you say, they did have a phrase that they used to describe it, but they only outlawed it in specific instances against specific types of women. They understood that sometimes women were forced against their will, but they only outlawed it some of the time. The only time that it is mentioned in the Law is when there is a man who is financially harmed by the woman being forced. Does this seem interesting to you?

Once again, scripture is absolutely clear about the consequence of rape. You should read about Amnon and Tamar in 2 Samuel 13. I would also read Judges 19 and 20 where the Levite servant was raped, as a result war was declared against the Benjaminites because they refused to turn over the men who raped the servant. If you read further, the Benjaminites were defeated and almost destroyed. I would challenge you to look at any example where someone raped another for any reason and read on to see the consequence of that rape. I guarantee that it is not pretty for the culprit. Just about everyone who raped another was eventually put to death....period.
 
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Moral Orel

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I would challenge you to look at any example where someone raped another for any reason and read on to see the consequence of that rape.
I mentioned those Deuteronomy laws in the OP. And I've already read the GotQuestions.org site's response long before I posted here. The problem with those laws, that GotQuestions.org ignores, is that they don't protect all women. They specifically only protect women when there is a man with something to lose.

Can you show me one example, of all the examples of rape in the Bible, where the victim was someone other than a wife or a virgin? In the case of a wife, the harm to the husband is obvious. In the case of virgins, becoming "ruined" as someone here has put it, means the father can't sell his daughter for as much, that's why one of the laws in Deuteronomy demands the perpetrator pay the "bride price" for virgins.

Now in Numbers, they say to give all the virgins to the soldiers. I'm not going to claim that they raped the girls right there on the battlefield, because there is another passage that explains how the process works. I forget where. But it states that they do get married. However, after being married, and after consummating, the man is instructed on what to do if he doesn't like her, in that he can divorce her after defiling her. Point is, forced marriage leads to forced intercourse. Those girls are raped eventually. After watching a bunch of soldiers kill their entire families, including their infant brothers, there's no way all those girls saw their captors as their liberators.

Point is, rape to them isn't what we consider rape. The man owns the consent of the woman, and that morality is all backwards.

So the question is again, and this is the important part to answer, are there instances of rape in the Bible of anyone that isn't a wife or a virgin? If not, is there something wrong with the fact that only these type of women are protected under the law?
 
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Can you show me one example, of all the examples of rape in the Bible, where the victim was someone other than a wife or a virgin?

The Levite concubine in Judges 19. She was neither married or a virgin.

In the case of virgins, becoming "ruined" as someone here has put it, means the father can't sell his daughter for as much, that's why one of the laws in Deuteronomy demands the perpetrator pay the "bride price" for virgins.

Reference please.

Point is, forced marriage leads to forced intercourse. Those girls are raped eventually. After watching a bunch of soldiers kill their entire families, including their infant brothers, there's no way all those girls saw their captors as their liberators.

Not true. The bible forbids spousal rape. However it does instruct spouses not to withhold sex from eachother to prevent temptation of adultery.

Point is, rape to them isn't what we consider rape. The man owns the consent of the woman, and that morality is all backwards.

Reference please.

So the question is again, and this is the important part to answer, are there instances of rape in the Bible of anyone that isn't a wife or a virgin? If not, is there something wrong with the fact that only these type of women are protected under the law?
Again, Judges 19. The concubine is neither married nor a virgin.
 
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Moral Orel

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Not true. The bible forbids spousal rape.
Citation please. OT, of course, we're not talking about how those morals changed.
I know the Bible talks plenty about being fruitful, and plenty about the wife obeying her husband, so it seems to me, that without explicitly saying, "only have sex when your partner wants to" a purely legalistic view of the matter is that the wife is the sinner if she doesn't comply, and the husband is doing what the Bible says to do (being fruitful).
The Levite concubine in Judges 19. She was neither married or a virgin.
Again, Judges 19. The concubine is neither married nor a virgin.
Ahh, you got me on a technicality. On the one hand, the Levite is referred to as both her "master" and her "husband" so what it means to be a "concubine" is a little hazy to me. Makes me think "personal sex slave" but the best possible way to phrase it would be "exclusive prostitute". You know the point I was making was that women are property though, right? So pointing out an instance that a woman is even more explicitly a piece of property doesn't really help your case even though I was technically wrong.

The Levite story is further complicated by the fact that she was "raped" because the Levite told the men to do that to her. And then they killed her. So what did they really do to get themselves (the Benjamites) killed? Rape or murder? If it's the rape that's the problem, tell me, what was the punishment for the Levite that threw her to the wolves and gave them permission to violate her against her will?
 
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Moral Orel

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Reference please.
This one, for the bride price being lower for non-virgins.

One pertinent excerpt:
(a) Exodus 22:15–16: A man who seduces a virgin who has not been betrothed must marry her by the payment of a bride price. If the father is unwilling to permit his daughter to marry her seducer, he must still pay her father "in accordance with the bride price for virgins." In either case the father is compensated for his monetary loss.​
And:
The legal disability of a non-virgin expresses itself in the fact that her ketubbah is only 100 zuz instead of the 200 of the virgin​

ETA The bit I cut and pasted is off by one verse. It's actually 16-17
 
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Moral Orel

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Reference please.
This one, in reference to men owning the consent of the women.

One pertinent excerpt:
Unlike modern law, then, biblical law looks beyond individual consent to include the consent of the father and, by extension, other family members who may have an interest in negotiating terms of marriage.​
 
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Yes 300-500 CE. That would be the date that it was “written” into what would become the Talmud. Some would go as far to say it is 1000-1200 years older and was in an oral form, passed down through the ages.

Most of us find that to be quite unlikely.

It is fine to say God/Jews didn’t condemn all forms of rape, but did any culture during the Bronze Age have better laws pertaining to rape?

That's actually the point. There is nothing special about the ancient Hebrews or any documents they produced. On the primitive vs progressive spectrum, they may fall on one end or another on any given issue but in general they find themselves in the middle.

It may seem like the atheist is picking on ancient Hebrews, but really we are picking on God. If God put forth some idea, it's held to a divine standard. Upon examination, it's clear that God comes up lacking across the board.
 
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toLiJC

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So I've brought it up a few times in various threads that were only slightly on topic, but where are the laws against rape and molestation?

Leviticus 18 has a long list of people you aren't supposed to have sex with, and it even mentions no homosexual sex, but nowhere in the OT does it say, "Don't have sex with people that don't want it" or "Don't have sex with children".

If the Mosaic Laws were really handed down directly by God to Moses, then shouldn't the worst possible sins get mentioned? It goes into detail about restitution for theft and damage of property, but no mention of rape. Why is that?

Now I know someone is going to say, "Well what about Deuteronomy 22?".

Well those are laws against adultery that give a pass to the woman if she was raped. It doesn't condemn raping women for the sake of the rape. The man is getting the same punishment whether he forced the woman or not. And they also only protect betrothed virgins. No protection for children, widows, divorced women, un-betrothed women, wives (by their husbands) etc...

So why the omission? If it's important enough to detail what to do if your ox destroys property, shouldn't it be important enough to say, "Hey, no raping the ladies!" and "Hands off the little girls!"?

Now don't get me wrong. This isn't a nail in the coffin for God's existence. And I'm not even judging bronze-age people for not thinking to include it. But if the laws were truly divinely inspired, then they wouldn't have glaring omissions like this. If they were man made, then this is what we would expect: that their laws weren't much different from other contemporary cultures. So it would only raise the question of whether we should take every law and rule laid out in the Bible completely literally and whether every law and rule laid out in the Bible as applying to modern times as well as ancient times.

there is no omission:

Exodus 20:14 "Thou shalt not commit adultery."

this means don't cause harm/suffering to your (male/female) neighbor by wrong or by intrusion, obtrusion, violence, rape, enslavement, etc.

Blessings
 
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Moral Orel

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there is no omission:

Exodus 20:14 "Thou shalt not commit adultery."

this means don't cause harm/suffering to your (male/female) neighbor by wrong or by intrusion, obtrusion, violence, rape, enslavement, etc.

Blessings
We established earlier in the thread that this isn't true. In the OT, it was only adultery when a man had relations with a married woman. It was not adultery when a woman had relations with a married man. That's the only definition of "adultery" that they used. Prostitution was even legal, though frowned upon.

Also, we've been going over the couple of laws that do mention forced relations, and looking at the fact that they only cover specific types of women: married virgins, and un-married virgins. There must be some reason they specifically take note of these types of women, and I've been arguing my stance over the last couple of pages.

And adultery doesn't mean all those other things either, since slavery was definitely legal. And no, not just indentured servitude, real slavery too.
 
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Moral Orel

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It may seem like the atheist is picking on ancient Hebrews, but really we are picking on God. If God put forth some idea, it's held to a divine standard. Upon examination, it's clear that God comes up lacking across the board.
Hey, don't throw me in that boat! I'm accepting as a premise for this argument that if God exists, He is perfect, and loving, and omniscient, and just, and hates rape. It's much more clear that He didn't write what people say He did than to think God wanted things exactly that way and said so. The Bible comes up lacking as something that was written by God because I'm sure He would have done a much better job.
 
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Hey, don't throw me in that boat! I'm accepting as a premise for this argument that if God exists, He is perfect, and loving, and omniscient, and just, and hates rape. It's much more clear that He didn't write what people say He did than to think God wanted things exactly that way and said so. The Bible comes up lacking as something that was written by God because I'm sure He would have done a much better job.
Once again, your argument is flawed. If God does exist and does in fact have all the traits you have mentioned, any omissions would have been done purposefully for a reason. You cannot somehow "prove" that the bible is not the inspired word of God simply because it does not conform to your expectations.

As far as rape is concerned, your assumption that it was ok for a man to rape a unmarried/unbetrothed non-virgin is completely false. Every time anyone was ever mentioned to have been raped or attempted to be raped, the perpetrator was ultimately put to death...with or without a specific law condemning it.
 
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Moral Orel

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Once again, your argument is flawed. If God does exist and does in fact have all the traits you have mentioned, any omissions would have been done purposefully for a reason. You cannot somehow "prove" that the bible is not the inspired word of God simply because it does not conform to your expectations.
Although you can't give me that reason. That's the point of the discussion. This, again, is no better than "He works in mysterious ways".
As far as rape is concerned, your assumption that it was ok for a man to rape a unmarried/unbetrothed non-virgin is completely false. Every time anyone was ever mentioned to have been raped or attempted to be raped, the perpetrator was ultimately put to death...with or without a specific law condemning it.
So ignore all my sources and references, even to the Bible, that say otherwise and just make this assertion? If the law says that it doesn't cover divorcees, and you have no stories of divorcees being raped and avenged, what makes you think the law covered divorcees? Just to pick one group of women.

There's also unmarried non-virgins. There's also women by their spouses, which I asked for a verse for. Couldn't find one in the OT could you?
 
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Hey, don't throw me in that boat! I'm accepting as a premise for this argument that if God exists, He is perfect, and loving, and omniscient, and just, and hates rape. It's much more clear that He didn't write what people say He did than to think God wanted things exactly that way and said so. The Bible comes up lacking as something that was written by God because I'm sure He would have done a much better job.

If you grant that a perfect God exists but show that the Bible is not his work, then are you trying to pitch deism to them?
 
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Although you can't give me that reason. That's the point of the discussion. This, again, is no better than "He works in mysterious ways".

This is not about "God works in mysterious ways", it's about how God intentionally keeps things hidden for a time in order for a purpose to be fulfilled. Second, if your argument is not flawed, then explain why the bible cannot be the inspired word of God simply because it does not conform with your expectations?

So ignore all my sources and references, even to the Bible, that say otherwise and just make this assertion? If the law says that it doesn't cover divorcees, and you have no stories of divorcees being raped and avenged, what makes you think the law covered divorcees? Just to pick one group of women.

There's also unmarried non-virgins. There's also women by their spouses, which I asked for a verse for. Couldn't find one in the OT could you?

If a man rapes his spouse or an unmarried non-virgin, he has violated all these to name a few:

Psalm 11:5, Malachi 2:13-16, Proverbs 10:11, Proverbs 6: 16-19, Psalm 140:1-2, Micah 6:8, Proverbs 11:29
 
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Moral Orel

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This is not about "God works in mysterious ways", it's about how God intentionally keeps things hidden for a time in order for a purpose to be fulfilled.
Why did He hide the moral "consent is king" then? What purpose is there in allowing rape to go undeterred against women that have no legal protections?
Second, if your argument is not flawed, then explain why the bible cannot be the inspired word of God simply because it does not conform with your expectations?
I didn't rule it out, I said what it looks like. It looks like most other contemporary civilizations list of legal code. It looks completely uninspired. It shows no greater understanding of morality than most other legal codes that we have from that time and times previous. Feel free to explain why God would write laws against rape that apply only to specific types of women and not all women. It seems contradictory to me that a God such as I described would want a society to function with such an evil not on the law books.

If you hate something, and you are in a position to tell people what not to do, wouldn't you tell them not to do the thing you hate? Maybe there's a reason for it, but you haven't given one yet.
If a man rapes his spouse or an unmarried non-virgin, he has violated all these to name a few:

Psalm 11:5, Malachi 2:13-16, Proverbs 10:11, Proverbs 6: 16-19, Psalm 140:1-2, Micah 6:8, Proverbs 11:29
Most of those are all general "don't be evil". If it isn't defined somewhere as explicitly evil, how can you attribute whatever you consider to be evil to those passages? It would be like me saying, "I think oral sex is immoral, and the Bible proves it. Look at all the times it says to not be 'sexually immoral'". The Malachi one is completely out of context, by the way. And none of them are enforceable laws with punishments ascribed, and therefore have nothing to do with the argument that Mosaic Law is not inspired by God. The Bible says, "Love thy neighbor", but they couldn't bring charges against someone for calling them a mean name, could they?
 
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Moral Orel

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If you grant that a perfect God exists but show that the Bible is not his work, then are you trying to pitch deism to them?
Nope. I'm pitching that more of the Bible than they think is allegory. Plenty of Christians see Genesis as allegory. I've had a Christian claim that Job is merely "Hebrew wisdom literature" and not a story of an actual person and actual events, as another example.

It seems completely possible to me that the Christian God could be the one true God, that He interacted with people on Earth, that they wrote about their experiences, but also went too far by attributing things to Him that He didn't say. Or at the very least God spoke in generalities, and people wrote in specifics.
 
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