That is an excellent question. I wish I would have asked that.I wonder why evolutionists are the ones that are falsifying evolutionary claims, and not creationists?
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That is an excellent question. I wish I would have asked that.I wonder why evolutionists are the ones that are falsifying evolutionary claims, and not creationists?
That is an excellent question. I wish I would have asked that.
Mark,
I'm a bit confused over the two subjects you mentioned. Perhaps you can clear them up for me.
First, there are creationists all over the physical sciences. I learn this from creationist web sites like AiG. All data is published and available to the scientific community. How exactly are they being denied access to evidence?
Are there instances where a scientific hypothesis was pushed forward by a creationist is ignored or ridiculed by the scientific community and then later accepted? I'm sure there are many instances where a creationist denied some scientific conclusion that later turned out to be true, but to be honest, if I answer "false" on every question on a true/false exam I should get roughly 50% right.
Second, why should the existence of additional ERVs be a problem to evolution? Evolution certainly allows for this to happen. As long as ERVs can be traced up the evolutionary tree, does it matter if any ERV's appeared after the presumed split?
mark, you reject homology as a valid means for inferring common ancestry, yet you yourself admit that you are a "radical evolutionist." Can I ask how you infer evolution within kinds if not with reference to homology? Maybe I'm just not understanding where you're coming from.
Also, how similar do you think the chimp and human genomes are? Is the human genome still more similar to that of a chimp than any other animal?
What "inverse logic" are you referring to? Could you please provide an example? I'm not clear about what you mean. Homology is inferred if it can pass the tests of similarity, conjunction, and congruence. Is there some other explanation besides homology that be invoked a priori that accounts for features that pass these tests? I don't think special creation works because special creation can be invoked to account for structures that DON'T pass these tests as well. It can be invoked to explain everything, and therefore explains nothing.I have no real problem with a homology argument as long as the inverse logic remains a possibility and with evolutionists it never is.
What do you mean by this?There is a theological theme to the homology arguments that should be taken into consideration.
I don't agree that the 98% figure is bogus, but for the sake of argument, I'll grant your position. So what's the true figure? 96% 92%? The point is that the chimp genome is VERY similar to that of humans, and in fact, is more similar to that of humans than to any other animal. The question that follows is Why? Why are humans and chimps so similar to the exclusion of all other animals?That's tough to say but the fact is that 98% is just plain bogus and they have known it for years. Now they may well be our closest comparative lineage but are we there's? The jury is still out on that one and I've found that aside from the actual peer reviewed papers evolutionists can't be trusted to make candid, explicit statements regarding chimpanzee/human comparisons. Your experiences might be different.
That was a specific reference to the Piltdown fraud and even Louis Leaky didn't get a chance at them even though he had said that the jaw did not belong with that skull. Creationists are never going to be allowed to gain credulity by being involved with anything other then published works. They can review the findings but actually handling things like fossils are never going to be allowed and certainly valid skepticism will never see the light of day.
The largest group of them are not only absent in humans but present in chimpanzees, they represent and enormous difference. The inverse logic of homology applies to them.
I believe there's a difference between macro-evolution and environmentally caused micro-evolution.No one is going to listen if your a creationist. Most of the popular scientific press on genomic comparisons of chimpanzees and humans say we are 98% the same in our DNA as Chimpanzees. This is simply not true and they have known this for years. Even the Nature Focus Article announcing the Chimpanzee Genome paper says 98% when the article specifically says otherwise. Not long ago I was on the Smithsonian site and they said 98% on there.
While Piltdown was still popular even the Smithsonian had an exhibit on Piltdown. Their explanation for how the fraud was so successful was simply that people see what they want to see. Taung is a fossil that was rightfully called a chimpanzee as long as Piltdown held it's popularity but when it started to fade away it became one of our ancestors.
There is a long list of deceptions out there that are simply accepted because creation as an alternative is simply unacceptable. My favorite has come to be the ERVs, they make this contrived homology argument based on the same mutations in the same psuedo-genes (Not always but often ERVs are found in psuedo-genes)in the same place. What they don't tell anyone is that the largest family of ERVs in the chimpanzee genome are absent in the human genome. Except for the psuedo-theology of TEs I have never seen an argument for evolution fall harder or faster.
Notice the Class I ERV section
-(Initial Sequence of the Chimpanzee Genome, Nature 2005)![]()
What does our genome share with the chimpanzees?
Here is another indication of just how huge the divergence is based just on the ERVs. Again notice the Class I ERVs:
![]()
Retroelements and the human genome: New perspectives on an old relation
The amazing thing is that despite these huge differences when comparing the two genomes side by side scientists still get by with saying 98% the same in our DNA. No one calls them on it, no one holds them accountable, no one makes the correction because homology arguments are without skepticism in the Darwinian theater of the mind.
Creationists don't expose frauds like Piltdown because for one thing, no creationist is going to get a chance to actually examine the evidence. What is infinitely more important is that any homology argument is given instant credibility. The actual fraud is in passing off these homology arguments as scientifically viable or verifiable.
Our results imply that humans and chimpanzees differ by at least 6% (1,418 of 22,000 genes) in their complement of genes, which stands in stark contrast to the oft-cited 1.5% difference between orthologous nucleotide sequences. This genomic revolving door of gene gain and loss represents a large number of genetic differences separating humans from our closest relatives. The Evolution of Mammalian Gene Families
By the way, creationists are the most radical of evolutionists. How long has it been since Noah's Art touched dry land on Ararat? That is one of the biggest frauds of all, that creationism is antievolution, that is absurd in the extreme unless evolution is defined as, 'the a priori assumption of universal common descent by exclusively naturalistic causes', which is not a scientific definition.. The scientific definition of evolution is in perfect keeping with creationist thought and conviction, in fact, it is the only way to explain the rapid re-population of the earth after the flood.
Grace and peace,
Mark
What "inverse logic" are you referring to? Could you please provide an example?
I'm not clear about what you mean. Homology is inferred if it can pass the tests of similarity, conjunction, and congruence. Is there some other explanation besides homology that be invoked a priori that accounts for features that pass these tests?
I don't think special creation works because special creation can be invoked to account for structures that DON'T pass these tests as well. It can be invoked to explain everything, and therefore explains nothing.
What do you mean by this?
I don't agree that the 98% figure is bogus, but for the sake of argument, I'll grant your position.
So what's the true figure? 96% 92%? The point is that the chimp genome is VERY similar to that of humans, and in fact, is more similar to that of humans than to any other animal. The question that follows is Why? Why are humans and chimps so similar to the exclusion of all other animals?
I believe there's a difference between macro-evolution and environmentally caused micro-evolution.
Have you ever read the book "The Seven Daughters of Eve" by Bryan Sykes?
The first sign of a fraud is when access is restricted or denied (see Carl Baugh). I'm not sure how pointing out Louis Leaky is going to help your argument about some conspiracy against atheists, though.
I still don't see why that affects common descent theory. Even if 98% isn't true, there is still an enormous amount (93%+) of similarity between chimps and man (as mallon mentions), and the theory is only strengthened by the fact that the similarities work in a way explained best by common descent.
I think your task would be simple - find just one of those chimp ERV's that doesn't exist in man, and find its match further up the evolutionary tree, and you've presented a serious problem for common descent. Find five, or three, or even two, and you've statistically falsified common descent once and for all. At least that's my understanding of things.
I have no idea what you are talking about, I mentioned Louis Leaky in passing while making another point entirely.
No 'even if', I simply refuse to accept that kind of a dodge. Either the statement that we are '98% the same in our DNA' is true or it is false. Why don't you check the actual scientific literature and get back to me on that.
There are the facts if you have the courage of your convictions and should be creating a 'serious problem' for common ancestry. But it doesn't create a problem crawfish does it? Well....does it or not!?
I'm still not quite sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that if homology arguments can be used to support common ancestry, then differences between lineages should be seen as evidence of special creation?For instance, if the DNA is so close only common ancestry can explain it then the differences are substantive reason to accept separate lineage and special creation. The problem is that homology arguments are a one way street...
We can get into this semantics snarl some other time. If a homology argument is to be accepted as valid then the inverse logic should be intuitively obvious.
Common ancestry follows from the nested distribution of traits in animals and plants, as I've explained above. It is not an assumption. This is something Todd Wood explains on his blog as well. See my signature.Which is exactly what the problem with the Darwinian a priori assumption of universal common descent.
The above argument you cited doesn't make sense. Of course God, in His omnipotence, can create as He wishes. He is unconstrained, and homology arguments don't deny this. But life IS constrained. It follows a nested pattern as I showed above. The question evolution addresses is why this pattern exists. Simply saying God created life as-is doesn't explain the existence of this pattern. Similarly, saying God made the sky blue doesn't help us to understand WHY the sky is blue. Saying God created the moon to orbit the earth doesn't explain WHY the moon orbits the earth. Again, an argument that explains everything ("God created it that way") really explains nothing because it doesn't further our knowledge about why things are the way they are. We need to evoke testable explanations.Try this explanation:
The theological premise in this argument -- that the apparent uniformity of certain biological patterns is inconsistent with the freedom of a creator to act as he wishes -- is nowhere better illustrated than in Darwin's book on the "contrivances" of orchids.
Like I said, I'm willing to grant you that it is wrong. Maybe chimps and humans share "only" 96% of their DNA in common. Maybe it's "only" 95%. The point is that humans and chimps still share a VAST MAJORITY if their DNA in common. In fact, they are more similar to one another than to any other animal. The exact percentage doesn't matter, and so I'm not going argue about it here. It isn't as though humans and chimps could be related only if they shared more than 98% of their DNA in common. The argument that humans and chimps share a more recent common ancestor than any other animal holds so long as their DNA and morphology is more similar to one another than to any other animal. The exact numbers don't matter.Give me one substantive reason you could possibly have to doubt that the '98% the same in our DNA' mantra is wrong.
You're not interested in learning why God made humans and chimps so similar? Fair enough, but I don't think that should prevent everyone else from trying. If God's creation really does reveal to us facts about the Creator, then I think the onus is on us to study His creation and reveal those facts.The question is how, not how much and certainly not why:
The inferred close relationship between humans and chimps is based on the similarity of their DNA and morphology, and on the many transitional fossils we have found. It is a conclusion based on the evidence, not a supposition. We may not yet understand every mechanism that facilitated the transition of humans from 'lower' apes, but I think you'll agree that isn't necessary to infer common ancestry. You've said before that you accept the evolution of whales from terrestrial mammals, yet we don't understand all the mechanisms that were involved in that transition, either. The argument that humans cannot be related to apes simply because we don't yet have a full of understanding of the mechanisms of brain evolution is moot. It's a logical fallacy. An argument from incredulity. We don't yet fully understand the development of an embryo in the womb, either, but that doesn't mean babies are created in the womb de novo.... No cause, no directly observed or demonstrated molecular mechanism and you have supposition and speculation, not science.