Missing link was a lie

[dad]

The difference being that thousands of years of experience provide us with a reason to believe in a 'same state' universe.

I agree. For thousands of years, it has.

 

[dad]

The point is that eyewitnesses can lie or be mistaken.

So called science has to rely on lying, even though they had no witnesses..sad! Like this missing link caper.

Do you believe in Islam? The Koran mentions many miracles that you have not witnessed. Why do you not believe in it?

I believe in miracles, of course. They do not change the nature of the universe, or all the planet, however. They are a localized application of the spiritual on the physical. The Koran is a book that is, like science, a present state book. It was written over 6 centuries after the time of Christ.

Duh, because we can see the effects of the bomb today. We can watch nuclear weapon testing videos. We can see it with our own eyes. That was a poor comparison.

Science applies in this state, and only here, a bomb is an example. They can't bomb Eden, or heaven.

We know that pillow lava forms underwater. What reason do we have to assume that it formed differently in the past?

That depends, what reason do we have for a particular formation to be post or pre flood?

I don't even believe in a "same state" Eden. I don't believe Eden ever existed.

You don't know. Nothing else matters, in lieu of evidence or bible.

Why? Why does the penalty of sin have to be death?

I don't make the rules. The wages of sin is death. It seems to stand to reason, that sin would separate us from a perfect God.

Let me ask you this. Would you send a human being to Hell for not loving you?

Let me ask you, would you force him to go the heaven if he preferred hell?

Then what about free will? Will we not have free will in the New Earth?

Don't see why not.

And what if it is never fullfilled? What about the other verses I gave?

It will be. It is a certain as if it already happened. It is just news from the future. No ifs about it.

He specifically said "this generation" when speaking to the disciples.

In reference to those that start to see the things mentioned in the end.

Matthew 24:32-34 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation (that sees all the things) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.



Ezekiel said Egypt would be made an uninhabited wasteland for forty years (29:10-14), and Nebuchadrezzar would plunder it (29:19-20). Neither happened.

" 8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring a sword upon thee, and cut off man and beast out of thee. 9 And the land of Egypt shall be desolate and waste; and they shall know that I am the LORD: because he hath said, The river is mine, and I have made it. 10 Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. 11 No foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither shall it be inhabited forty years. 12 And I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate forty years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries. 13 Yet thus saith the Lord GOD; At the end of forty years will I gather the Egyptians from the people whither they were scattered: 14 And I will bring again the captivity of Egypt, and will cause them to return into the land of Pathros, into the land of their habitation; and they shall be there a base kingdom. 15 It shall be the basest of the kingdoms; neither shall it exalt itself any more above the nations: for I will diminish them, that they shall no more rule over the nations. 16 And it shall be no more the confidence of the house of Israel, which bringeth their iniquity to remembrance, when they shall look after them: but they shall know that I am the Lord GOD. This explains the foregoing prediction, which was figurative, and looks something further. Here is a prophecy,
I. Of the ruin of Egypt. The threatening of this is very full and particular; and the sin for which this ruin shall be brought upon them is their pride, Ezekiel 29:9. They said, The river is mine and I have made it; therefore their land shall spue them out. 1. God is against them, both against the king and against the people, against thee and against thy rivers. Waters signify people and multitudes, Revelation 17:15. 2. Multitudes of them shall be cut off by the sword of war, a sword which God will bring upon them to destroy both man and beast, the sword of civil war. 3. The country shall be depopulated. The land of Egypt shall be desolate and waste (Ezekiel 29:9), the country not cultivated, the cities not inhabited. The wealth of both was their pride, and that God will take away. It shall be utterly waste (wastes of waste, so the margin reads it), and desolate (Ezekiel 29:10); neither men nor beasts shall pass through it, nor shall it be inhabited (Ezekiel 29:11); it shall be desolate in the midst of the countries that are so, Ezekiel 29:12. This was the effect not so much of those wars spoken of before, which were made by them, but of the war which the king of Babylon made upon them. It shall be desolate from one end of the land to the other, from the tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. The sin of pride is enough to ruin a whole nation. 4. The people shall be dispersed and scattered among the nations (Ezekiel 29:12), so that those who thought the balance of power was in their hand should now become a contemptible people. Such a fall does a haughty spirit go before.
II. Of the restoration of Egypt after awhile, Ezekiel 29:13. Egypt shall lie desolate forty years (Ezekiel 29:12) and then I will bring again the captivity of Egypt, Ezekiel 29:14. Some date the forty years from Nebuchadnezzar's destroying Egypt, others from the desolation of Egypt some time before; however, they end about the first year of Cyrus, when the seventy years' captivity of Judah ended, or soon after. Then this prediction was accomplished, 1. That God will gather the Egyptians out of all the countries into which they were dispersed, and make them to return to the land of their habitation, and give them a settlement there again, Ezekiel 29:14. Note, Though God will find out a way to humble the proud, yet he will not contend for ever, no, not with them in this world. 2. That yet they shall not make a figure again as they have done. Egypt shall be a kingdom again, but it shall be the basest of the kingdoms"


Ezekiel - Chapter 29 - Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on StudyLight.org

So, maybe there is some prophesy expert on the forum that can shed more light on that. I have an iniatial reaction, but would need to research it more to have an informed opinion. My opinion is, or reaction, that indeed the onslaught of Babylon was a shadow and partial fulfillment of the prophesy. Personally, I wonder if the ultimate fulfillment might be still to come? Any bible whizs out there?

I think you misunderstood me. I meant if a follower of Islam felt the same way about their religion, does that mean their religion is true?

How one feels about a belief does not make it true. What made Jesus true was that He did heal multitudes and multitudes, was witnessed to control nature itself, beasts and elements, etc. And, that He rose from the actual dead, and was seen by many. So it is not a matter of opinion. It sets the actual calendar of the planet. The scriptures were not fulfilled by Mohamed. So whatever he may have been, he was not the long awaited messiah.
You might feel the same way about the same state future, but it is just a belief. No science exists to back you up, and no bible.

So you agree that it was formed underwater in the past as well. If not, why should we assume the formation of pillow lava was different in the past?

I have no reason to. Unless some formation was dated pre flood, or pre split.

So you are admitting that the prophecies in the Bible are vague? Do you find it interesting that all religious prophecies are so vague? Where the prophets not good enough to be specific?

No. Many are specific. Like the years till Messiah was to come in Dan 9. Like the virgin birth, the town of Betlehem as the birthplace of Jesus, etc etc etc. The details in Psalm 22 of the cross are specific. In some cases, however, one requires the spirit to undertand the meaning. When Jesus read a passage in the synagogue one day, He said, it is fulfilled in your ears. Yet, He stopped mid way in a sentence, and never finished reading the rest. He closed the book. Why? Because the rest of the verse launches far into the future and His return to earth. Same thing elsewhere in the bible, such as Daniel 11, where it talks of some bad king, then launches right to the time of the AntiChrist. Etc.

So why did God put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden in the first place? Why did God create Satan?

Well, my tactic is to get saved, and maybe unravel some of the more mysterious secrets of the universe later.. It would seem that having a real actual free choice would require a bad guy, though..?

Then why was he so scared of a few people with mud bricks?

You mean Babel? He wasn't scared. But if man had reached the spiritual level, apparently, nothing would be withheld from him...or man would have gotten too much power for being in the sin state. We couldn't enter eternal life like this, in depravity, and sin. That is no way to spend eternity. He had to work out a plan for saving us. With His plan, we are changed from the inside out, and can enter in properly.

Well then let's look at the next verse.

38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Matthew 24:38-39

It seems to me that Christ said they were living their normal lives. There is no mention of a different state past.

We eat and drink in heaven to. The sons of god even took wives. Jesus ate and drank after rising from the dead in His new body. Yet heaven, and His body were anything but physical only. The different state does have similarities, you know.

I was not aware the "split" mentioned in Genesis refered to the laws of physics either. That is what's best about the Bible, anyone can interpret any vague verse in any way they like. Most likely the split is just the people separating out into the world after Babel. You interpret as some great change in the laws of physics.

Well, I have looked into it. The scale tips totally, when we add the differences of the past on the one side, and the present state on the other.

Do you have a guestimate as to when the tribulation will happen?

No. But, since many feel that we just can't know the day or hour when the rapture will occur, and, they feel, the tribulation ids after the rapture...who could really have one? There has been a great buzz in the world foor decades now, and growing all the time, because all the pieces are in place for the events of the end to unfold. The stage is set. We simply await the curtain call.

 

[BananaSlug]

So called science has to rely on lying, even though they had no witnesses..sad! Like this missing link caper.

So would you agree that any capital murder case that does not have eyewitnesses should be thrown out?

I believe in miracles, of course. They do not change the nature of the universe, or all the planet, however. They are a localized application of the spiritual on the physical. The Koran is a book that is, like science, a present state book. It was written over 6 centuries after the time of Christ.

What is the difference between a "localized application" of the spiritual and the "past state" spiritual?

Science applies in this state, and only here, a bomb is an example. They can't bomb Eden, or heaven.

The point is that you do not need eyewitnesses to verify a phenomena.

That depends, what reason do we have for a particular formation to be post or pre flood?

A pillow lava formation was dated to 3000 B.C. Why should we assume it was formed any differently than pillow lava today?

I don't make the rules. The wages of sin is death. It seems to stand to reason, that sin would separate us from a perfect God.

Why?

Let me ask you, would you force him to go the heaven if he preferred hell?

Who would prefer to go to Hell? Answer the question. Would you send a human being to hell for not loving you?

Don't see why not.

So are you saying we will have the ability to sin in the New Eternal State?


In reference to those that start to see the things mentioned in the end.

Matthew 24:32-34 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation (that sees all the things) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Then shouldn't it say "they" rather that "ye" (you)? It seems that Jesus was talking specifically to his disciples.

So, maybe there is some prophesy expert on the forum that can shed more light on that. I have an iniatial reaction, but would need to research it more to have an informed opinion. My opinion is, or reaction, that indeed the onslaught of Babylon was a shadow and partial fulfillment of the prophesy. Personally, I wonder if the ultimate fulfillment might be still to come? Any bible whizs out there?

So as of right now Egypt was never a wasteland and it was never invaded by Nebuchadnezzar. Interesting.

How one feels about a belief does not make it true. What made Jesus true was that He did heal multitudes and multitudes, was witnessed to control nature itself, beasts and elements, etc. And, that He rose from the actual dead, and was seen by many. So it is not a matter of opinion.

So what about the healers of other religious manuscripts? Mohammed healed people. Many miracles were attributed to Mohammed and was accompanied by eyewitnesses. According to you this makes Islam true.

It sets the actual calendar of the planet.

Correction, it sets the calendar of westernized countries. The Hindu calendar is the oldest surviving calendar system.

The scriptures were not fulfilled by Mohamed. So whatever he may have been, he was not the long awaited messiah.

What scriptures did Christ fulfill?

You might feel the same way about the same state future, but it is just a belief. No science exists to back you up, and no bible.

What evidence is there to assume the past followed a different set of physical laws?

No. Many are specific. Like the years till Messiah was to come in Dan 9.

I just read something about 70 weeks. Could you be more specific?

Like the virgin birth, the town of Betlehem as the birthplace of Jesus, etc etc etc.

I hope you were not talking about Micah 5.

2But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Then just go on down to verse 6:

6And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.

When did Jesus deliver anybody from the Assyrians?

The details in Psalm 22 of the cross are specific.

How so? I did not read any details in Psalms 22 about a cross. Could you point it out to me?

In some cases, however, one requires the spirit to undertand the meaning.

Ah, one of those "you have to believe before you are shown why you should believe". What if the spirit gives people conflicting understandings?

Same thing elsewhere in the bible, such as Daniel 11, where it talks of some bad king, then launches right to the time of the AntiChrist. Etc.

2And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia. Daniel 11:2

Xerxes was the antichrist?

Well, my tactic is to get saved, and maybe unravel some of the more mysterious secrets of the universe later.. It would seem that having a real actual free choice would require a bad guy, though..?

Why would free will require a bad guy?

He had to work out a plan for saving us. With His plan, we are changed from the inside out, and can enter in properly.

Why did he have to "work out a plan"? Could he not just forgive?

We eat and drink in heaven to. The sons of god even took wives. Jesus ate and drank after rising from the dead in His new body. Yet heaven, and His body were anything but physical only. The different state does have similarities, you know.

Then how do you decide what was different and what was the same?

Well, I have looked into it. The scale tips totally, when we add the differences of the past on the one side, and the present state on the other.

What else have you looked in to?

No. But, since many feel that we just can't know the day or hour when the rapture will occur, and, they feel, the tribulation ids after the rapture...who could really have one? There has been a great buzz in the world foor decades now, and growing all the time, because all the pieces are in place for the events of the end to unfold. The stage is set. We simply await the curtain call.

I have a feeling you will be waiting for a while.

 

[Spacewyrm]

So as of right now Egypt was never a wasteland and it was never invaded by Nebuchadnezzar. Interesting.

Hey, give him some time, BananaSlug; I'm sure Nebuchadnezzar will get around to it eventually. Geez, he's always got people on his back. "Nebuchadnezzar, when are you going to invade Egypt already? We've been waiting practically forever!" He doesn't need anybody reminding him!

 

[dad]

So would you agree that any capital murder case that does not have eyewitnesses should be thrown out?

When you get up the science to try Cain in the Cain and Able case, get back to us. Until then, why talk about anything you can't actually deal with?

What is the difference between a "localized application" of the spiritual and the "past state" spiritual?

One involves the nature and laws of the world, and our universe. The other involves a person, ot little area, for a certain little time.

The point is that you do not need eyewitnesses to verify a phenomena.

Then let's see you overide the records of a different state past, with some proof of a present state existing then...? Should be simpple, if you had the goods.

A pillow lava formation was dated to 3000 B.C. Why should we assume it was formed any differently than pillow lava today?

I would assume it was different if they used present state decay methods to 'date' it. But, since the flood was around 2500 BC, they may be close on that on.

Who would prefer to go to Hell? Answer the question. Would you send a human being to hell for not loving you?

If I sent in a son to die for them, specifically, and they said, no thanks, I would have to take it, that they preferred not to get saved.

Your approach is one of..'Aren't you more fair than mean ol God?' We don't see all the facts. Let's look at fallen angels. They will be separated from the world of men along with the devil. Is that unfair? Should the terrorists be allowed to destroy the peace and health, and security of the planet, instead? I would think not.
Knowing God, believers tend to give Him the benefit of the doubt. He is just and good.

So are you saying we will have the ability to sin in the New Eternal State?

I thought I said I doubted that? Who says there even will be sin there? Do you know?

Then shouldn't it say "they" rather that "ye" (you)? It seems that Jesus was talking specifically to his disciples.

No. We are all of His fold. He had many other sheep that were not there. He also says things like 'then shall ye see the son of man...' speaking of the end. We could take that 2 ways, I suppose. They, of course will see it, they are alive, you know. Also, His church, believers of the day will see it. We are all the same people.

So as of right now Egypt was never a wasteland and it was never invaded by Nebuchadnezzar. Interesting.

I tend to see it that way as well. But I am not an expert on prophesy, and am fairly new to that particular one. Commentators seem to think it was fulfilled. As I say, I tend to lean toward a more total fulfillment still to come.

So what about the healers of other religious manuscripts? Mohammed healed people. Many miracles were attributed to Mohammed and was accompanied by eyewitnesses. According to you this makes Islam true.

No. God is not the only spirit that can do stuff. Some people in Indonesia, if I recall, got into hot water with that crowd, because they referred to Allah as God, I think. Apparently many of them want to make a clear distiction which God is theirs. Others perhaps, might be a little more like me, and think that many brought up in that way only know God to some degree, or about Him, by another name. Like the Great Spirit..etc.

Correction, it sets the calendar of westernized countries. The Hindu calendar is the oldest surviving calendar system.

It doesn't mean that the important cities of the world use it.

What scriptures did Christ fulfill?

You best google that question. There are so many.

What evidence is there to assume the past followed a different set of physical laws?

The records.

I just read something about 70 weeks. Could you be more specific?

I did a whole thread on that at EVC forums one time. I think it was one of the best threads I ever seen. But it is a bit large to fit in a little sub post.

I hope you were not talking about Micah 5.

2But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Then just go on down to verse 6:

6And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.

When did Jesus deliver anybody from the Assyrians?

Why did Assyria have a ruler that pre dated the universe!?? Prophesy does not have to occupy a whole chapter, and sometimes, we must be in the spirit enough, mid verse, to leap thousands of years into the future...

How so? I did not read any details in Psalms 22 about a cross. Could you point it out to me?

The whole chapter is a view from the cross looking down. I can give a link, that explains it very well.


( it is large, because all the psalms are explained...but you just look up psalm 22, and listen to that)

http://sundaysermon.ca/zip/19_psa.zip

Ah, one of those "you have to believe before you are shown why you should believe". What if the spirit gives people conflicting understandings?

What spirit?

2

And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia. Daniel 11:2

Xerxes was the antichrist?

No. He was an antichrist. A shadow of things to come.

Why would free will require a bad guy?

Consequences.

Why did he have to "work out a plan"? Could he not just forgive?

Well, if you stabbed blew up a man's house, and he was severely injured, and you asked for forgiveness, that wouldn't fix all thing right away. He would still maybe be half blind, and missing a few limbs, etc. When God said don't eat that tree, or you will die, something happened when they did eat. A little hug would not change that. The universe was 'wired' into us remember! Adam, like Jesus was over nature. And all creatures. Adam and Eve had just cut themselves off from God, separated themselves, and entered the area of sin, and evil. ..Death. Fixing it for man would apparently not be quick, painless, or easy. Free will is nothing to be trifled with.

Then how do you decide what was different and what was the same?

I look at what it is like in the future and past of the bible, and even history to some extent, and compare notes with the here and now. Simple.

 

[BananaSlug]

When you get up the science to try Cain in the Cain and Able case, get back to us. Until then, why talk about anything you can't actually deal with?

Okay, it seems you support throwing out criminal cases that do not have eyewitnesses.

One involves the nature and laws of the world, and our universe. The other involves a person, ot little area, for a certain little time.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Then let's see you overide the records of a different state past, with some proof of a present state existing then...? Should be simpple, if you had the goods.

All I can say is there is no evidence anywhere in the geologic record, or in the records of civilizations that were around during the period of this supposed "split".

I would assume it was different if they used present state decay methods to 'date' it. But, since the flood was around 2500 BC, they may be close on that on.

So why would pillow lava form differently in the "different state" past? If it is formed underwater now, why not then?

If I sent in a son to die for them, specifically, and they said, no thanks, I would have to take it, that they preferred not to get saved.

God did not have to send his son in the first place. He could have just forgiven them.

Y

our approach is one of..'Aren't you more fair than mean ol God?' We don't see all the facts. Let's look at fallen angels. They will be separated from the world of men along with the devil. Is that unfair? Should the terrorists be allowed to destroy the peace and health, and security of the planet, instead? I would think not.

I agree that people should be punished for their actions. Eternal punishment... not so much.

I thought I said I doubted that? Who says there even will be sin there? Do you know?

So now you are saying we won't have free will in Heaven? If so, why didn't God just skip all of this and not create Satan or the Tree of Knowledge in the first place?

No. We are all of His fold. He had many other sheep that were not there. He also says things like 'then shall ye see the son of man...' speaking of the end. We could take that 2 ways, I suppose. They, of course will see it, they are alive, you know. Also, His church, believers of the day will see it. We are all the same people.

Then why didn't Jesus specifically mention that? The context of the scripture implies he was speaking specifically to his disciples.

I tend to see it that way as well. But I am not an expert on prophesy, and am fairly new to that particular one. Commentators seem to think it was fulfilled. As I say, I tend to lean toward a more total fulfillment still to come.

I guess that means Nebuchadnezzar will have to be raised from the dead. As of right now I can't see how he could pull it off...

No. God is not the only spirit that can do stuff. Some people in Indonesia, if I recall, got into hot water with that crowd, because they referred to Allah as God, I think. Apparently many of them want to make a clear distiction which God is theirs. Others perhaps, might be a little more like me, and think that many brought up in that way only know God to some degree, or about Him, by another name. Like the Great Spirit..etc.

How do you know? Where you there to see it? There were eyewitnesses to Muhammad's great works.

It doesn't mean that the important cities of the world use it.

But it doesn't set the calendar of the whole world. Thank you for admitting that.

The records.

What records, specifically?

Why did Assyria have a ruler that pre dated the universe!?? Prophesy does not have to occupy a whole chapter, and sometimes, we must be in the spirit enough, mid verse, to leap thousands of years into the future...

The point is, if you read the all of the verses, is that it is not talking about Christ. Christ never laid waste to Assyria.

The whole chapter is a view from the cross looking down. I can give a link, that explains it very well.

That is new to me. I thought it was David lamenting over the consequences of his actions. Psalm 22 is a lament unusual in structure and in intensity of feeling. David's present distress is contrasted with God's past mercy in Psalm 22:2-12. In Psalm 22:13-22 enemies surround the psalmist. The last third is an invitation to praise God (Psalm 22:23-27), becoming a universal chorus of praise (Psalm 22:28-31).

What spirit?

Isn't it the Holy Spirit that provides the correct interpretation? What if two people, claiming inspiration from the Holy Spirit, have conflicting interpretations of scripture?

No. He was an antichrist. A shadow of things to come.

Well Daniel 11 is describing everything happening around the same time.

4And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.



Verse four deals with Xerxes' rule coming to an end. Look at the first word of the next verse:



5And the king of the south shall be strong, and one of his princes; and he shall be strong above him, and have dominion; his dominion shall be a great dominion.

The "King of the South" became strong due to the dissolution of Xerxes' kingdom. Daniel 11 has nothing to do with the future, unless firearms become obsolete and we start conducting battles with chariots, horses, and swords.

Consequences.

What does that have to do with having a "bad guy". People can make bad decisions without a "bad guy".

Well, if you stabbed blew up a man's house, and he was severely injured, and you asked for forgiveness, that wouldn't fix all thing right away. He would still maybe be half blind, and missing a few limbs, etc. When God said don't eat that tree, or you will die, something happened when they did eat. A little hug would not change that.

37 “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.” Luke 6:37-38

14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matthew 6:14-15

25 “And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses. Mark 11:25

So we are expected to forgive freely yet God requires blood?

The universe was 'wired' into us remember! Adam, like Jesus was over nature. And all creatures. Adam and Eve had just cut themselves off from God, separated themselves, and entered the area of sin, and evil. ..Death. Fixing it for man would apparently not be quick, painless, or easy. Free will is nothing to be trifled with.

It is nice to see you think an omnipotent God could not have done it easily.

 

[dad]

Okay, it seems you support throwing out criminal cases that do not have eyewitnesses.

If one didn't know the state of the universe, that might hold some water. We do.

All I can say is there is no evidence anywhere in the geologic record, or in the records of civilizations that were around during the period of this supposed "split".

Where in the geologic record are you looking? What sort of evidence should we find there? Who was it, exactly that was looking for a universe state change in the dirt, and rocks, exactly?? get serious.

What civilizations do you imagine were here? Really?

So why would pillow lava form differently in the "different state" past? If it is formed underwater now, why not then?

Well, so far you haven't shown us a pre flood formation.So we don't have much to go on here, now do we?

God did not have to send his son in the first place. He could have just forgiven them.

Says you. Apparently it doesn't work that way.

I agree that people should be punished for their actions. Eternal punishment... not so much.

If you don't want to be separated from God, I think you know what to do.

So now you are saying we won't have free will in Heaven? If so, why didn't God just skip all of this and not create Satan or the Tree of Knowledge in the first place?

No, I am not saying that. I see no reason why we would become zombies there.

Then why didn't Jesus specifically mention that? The context of the scripture implies he was speaking specifically to his disciples.

The context is for those disciples that see it really start to come down. Those would not be the ones alive then, but at the time the stuff comes down.

I guess that means Nebuchadnezzar will have to be raised from the dead. As of right now I can't see how he could pull it off...

I'll have to look at that chapter more when I get time. It says Neb would go a certain place?

How do you know? Where you there to see it? There were eyewitnesses to Muhammad's great works.

Whoopee do. Works that are spiritual are a dime a dozen. The issue is, was it God, or the bad spirits? The way we know bad spirits is simple. If they confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, and was raised from the dead, they are NOT of God. No agonizing needed.

But it doesn't set the calendar of the whole world. Thank you for admitting that.

Name me one major country, say in the G8 that does not use it? ..Or anywhere else for that matter?

What records, specifically?[/qyuote] Very early history of the Egyptians and Sumerians, and the bible.

The point is, if you read the all of the verses, is that it is not talking about Christ. Christ never laid waste to Assyria.

You need to know where the time travel starts and stops. I already explained that it can occur mid verse even.

That is new to me. I thought it was David lamenting over the consequences of his actions. Psalm 22 is a lament unusual in structure and in intensity of feeling. David's present distress is contrasted with God's past mercy in Psalm 22:2-12. In Psalm 22:13-22 enemies surround the psalmist. The last third is an invitation to praise God (Psalm 22:23-27), becoming a universal chorus of praise (Psalm 22:28-31).

So listen to the thing I gave you, and learn.

Isn't it the Holy Spirit that provides the correct interpretation? What if two people, claiming inspiration from the Holy Spirit, have conflicting interpretations of scripture?

What if 2 lawyers have different ideas of law? Should one be disbarred? What if doctors have a different idea of what the diagnosis and drugs to treat it should be? Should one go to jail? A lot of the degree that God and His spirit impacts us, it seems to me, depends on the heart, and the measure to which the particular man has honestly sought God. Not all things have to have some single answer. Many things are not that important, so there is room for opinion. The trick is, to know what is absolute, and fact, and what isn't.

Well Daniel 11 is describing everything happening around the same time.

4And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.



Verse four deals with Xerxes' rule coming to an end. Look at the first word of the next verse:



5And the king of the south shall be strong, and one of his princes; and he shall be strong above him, and have dominion; his dominion shall be a great dominion.

The "King of the South" became strong due to the dissolution of Xerxes' kingdom. Daniel 11 has nothing to do with the future, unless firearms become obsolete and we start conducting battles with chariots, horses, and swords.



What does that have to do with having a "bad guy". People can make bad decisions without a "bad guy".

Nope. Chapter 11 launches deep through time, and starts to talk of the final leader.

So we are expected to forgive freely yet God requires blood?

It was in that blood, that was shed, that made us no longer separate from Him. So, we are to be like Him now. That means mercy, and forgiveness. First we must have Him in us, or we could not forgive.

 

[USincognito]

I realize that dad (and his fellow travellers) have trouble staying on topic, but shouldn't the discussion at least try and remain on fossil finds?

 

[LightHorseman]

I agree. For thousands of years, it has.

I don't believe you're thousands of years old.

 

[mpok1519]

dad it's not good to lie. You know this and you know what you're saying is completely untrue. You know this, but seem to enjoy spreading false witness.

 

[BananaSlug]

Where in the geologic record are you looking? What sort of evidence should we find there? Who was it, exactly that was looking for a universe state change in the dirt, and rocks, exactly?? get serious.

You tell me. What geologic evidence would support a different state past? If the laws of physics were different in the past then surely it would be apparent in the geologic record.

What civilizations do you imagine were here? Really?

The 6th Dynasty of Egypt. The Sixth Dynasty was founded by Teti, who had married Iput, commonly believed to be the daughter of King Unas of the Fifth Dynasty. I guess they just forgot to mention the "split" that occured.

Well, so far you haven't shown us a pre flood formation.So we don't have much to go on here, now do we?

Anything older than 4000 years would be "pre-flood".

No, I am not saying that. I see no reason why we would become zombies there.

So now you are saying we will have the choice to sin.

I'll have to look at that chapter more when I get time. It says Neb would go a certain place?

19 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Surely I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; he shall take away her wealth, carry off her spoil, and remove her pillage; and that will be the wages for his army. 20 I have given him the land of Egypt for his labor, because they worked for Me,’ says the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 29:19-20

It never happened.

Whoopee do. Works that are spiritual are a dime a dozen. The issue is, was it God, or the bad spirits? The way we know bad spirits is simple. If they confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, and was raised from the dead, they are NOT of God. No agonizing needed.

That contradicts what you said in the earlier post. What was it? Oh yes!

No. God is not the only spirit that can do stuff.

Now you are saying spiritual works are "a dime a dozen"?

Name me one major country, say in the G8 that does not use it? ..Or anywhere else for that matter?

The United States. The Gregorian calendar is not the official calendar of the US. The legal code of the United States does not specifiy an offical national calendar.

Very early history of the Egyptians and Sumerians, and the bible.

Can you give some examples?

You need to know where the time travel starts and stops. I already explained that it can occur mid verse even.

Would you mind pointing out to me where the "time travel" occurs in the verse?

What if 2 lawyers have different ideas of law? Should one be disbarred?

Interpretation of law is based on personal subjections. Supposedly, people who interpret scripture claim it is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Two different concepts.

What if doctors have a different idea of what the diagnosis and drugs to treat it should be? Should one go to jail?

Maybe.

A lot of the degree that God and His spirit impacts us, it seems to me, depends on the heart, and the measure to which the particular man has honestly sought God. Not all things have to have some single answer.

Fair enough.

Many things are not that important, so there is room for opinion. The trick is, to know what is absolute, and fact, and what isn't.

How do you tell what is absolute and what isn't?

Nope. Chapter 11 launches deep through time, and starts to talk of the final leader.

Its funny considering it never gives a specific time. Am I the only one who is intriqued at the vagueness of these prophecies?

It was in that blood

, that was shed, that made us no longer separate from Him. So, we are to be like Him now. That means mercy, and forgiveness. First we must have Him in us, or we could not forgive.

Are you saying that atheists are incapable of forgiveness? It still doesn't answer the question as to why God requires blood for sin.

Anyway, I will stop now, in regards to the OP.

 

[Nostromo]

What geologic evidence would support a different state past? If the laws of physics were different in the past then surely it would be apparent in the geologic record.

I'm interested in what would disprove a different state past, what would we see if dad's hypothesis was not true. dad?

 

[dad]

You tell me. What geologic evidence would support a different state past? If the laws of physics were different in the past then surely it would be apparent in the geologic record.

You tell me, if we look at gold in a deposit, what will that tell us about transparent, see through gold in New Jerusalem? You would have to compare the two, I would think! What we see in rocks is how they came to exist in this present state, with decay, and etc.

The 6th Dynasty of Egypt. The Sixth Dynasty was founded by Teti, who had married Iput, commonly believed to be the daughter of King Unas of the Fifth Dynasty. I guess they just forgot to mention the "split" that occured.

Let's look at that. Show us HOW it is dated?

Anything older than 4000 years would be "pre-flood".

No, 4500 years. Of course with the split at 4400 years ago, you better be real careful how you date stuff near the cusp.

So now you are saying we will have the choice to sin.

How do we know sin will be here then? If it isn't it won't be part of the choices!

19

Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Surely I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; he shall take away her wealth, carry off her spoil, and remove her pillage; and that will be the wages for his army. 20 I have given him the land of Egypt for his labor, because they worked for Me,’ says the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 29:19-20

It never happened.

Hmm, I will have to look at that one. So Babylon never took stuff from Egypt? Something tells me you may be interpreting things here. We shall see.

That contradicts what you said in the earlier post. What was it? Oh yes!



Now you are saying spiritual works are "a dime a dozen"?

Well, spiritual works are common. People get possessed, for example. People practice things occult. All sorts of spiritual influences. Getting some miracle doesn't mean God endorses all things of some sidebar religion. If some swami climbs a rope, that doesn't mean he is saved.

The United States. The Gregorian calendar is not the official calendar of the US. The legal code of the United States does not specifiy an offical national calendar.

It doesn't specify they are to use the hindi one either. Fact is, we all know what one they use. I win.

Can you give some examples?

The spiritual beings and gods living among men. Long lifespans.

Would you mind pointing out to me where the "time travel" occurs in the verse?

"The" verse?? What verse? There are many such verses. For example the one I mentioned about Jesus reading the scripture, and stopping mid sentence. ..Boom, time travel..the next phrase is thousands of years in the future. Doesn't take long to travel through time for the great 'I AM', now does it!?

Interpretation of law is based on personal subjections. Supposedly, people who interpret scripture claim it is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Two different concepts.

Leave the fine tuning to those that believe a particular faith. Save your head from exploding.

How do you tell what is absolute and what isn't?

Well, you try to figure out what is actually known. That would be a new concept for a so called science indoctrinated person! Like culture shock.

Its funny considering it never gives a specific time. Am I the only one who is intriqued at the vagueness of these prophecies?

Cyrus was named long long before he was born. Daniel gave the years till Messiah would be cut off...etc. Israel was in captivity 70 years, the famine in Egypt lasted 7 years, etc.

Are you saying that atheists are incapable of forgiveness? It still doesn't answer the question as to why God requires blood for sin.

?? If they are people, they simply need to ask for the free gift, like anyone else.

 

[Spacewyrm]

I realize that dad (and his fellow travellers) have trouble staying on topic, but shouldn't the discussion at least try and remain on fossil finds?

Given that dad was the OP, I think the direction that this thread has taken was inevitable.

 

[dad]

I'm interested in what would disprove a different state past, what would we see if dad's hypothesis was not true. dad?

We would see spirits among men. We would see no decay. We would see long lifespans. We would see fast plant growth. We would see a different light, and laws.

How could you disprove that there will be a new heavens? You can't. Science is a pee wee.

 

[dad]

I don't believe you're thousands of years old.

Me either. I don't believe you are billions of years old. So?

 

[dad]

I realize that dad (and his fellow travellers) have trouble staying on topic, but shouldn't the discussion at least try and remain on fossil finds?

Yes. So what have you to say about the so called missing link being totally untrue?

What do you have to offer us, to evidence that evolving in the time when most things evolved. happened in this state, and therefore took long ages?

The spotlight is on you. Don't blow it.

 

[dad]

dad it's not good to lie. You know this and you know what you're saying is completely untrue. You know this, but seem to enjoy spreading false witness.

What is untrue?

 

[Nostromo]

We would see spirits among men. We would see no decay. We would see long lifespans. We would see fast plant growth. We would see a different light, and laws.

You're describing a different state present, the present is obviously how it is. What would we need to look for to disprove your specific different state past?

How could you disprove that there will be a new heavens? You can't. Science is a pee wee.

My dad's bigger than your...

 

[dad]

You're describing a different state present, the present is obviously how it is. What would we need to look for to disprove your specific different state past?
My dad's bigger than your...

I would think it is not so much 'what' but where and when! Science doesn't have the power to look at the future or creation, to compare notes with how it now is. Does it?

God is bigger than science, yes.