Missing link was a lie

[dad]

So do you have any specific verses or just personal interpretations?

Lots of verses in the link.

Something we like to call writing.

What about it? Looks more like something I call pictures..

The Pyramids of Giza were constructed around 2560 BC, led by Pharoah Khufu. The Egyptians left records of how long their pharoahs reigned.

Prove it.

The Pyramids of Giza. The oldest pyramid still around is the Step Pyramid of Pharoah Djoser of the 3rd Old Kingdom Dynasty (around 4600 years ago).

Nope. Your dates are wrong, support em....if you can.

You seem to keep sidestepping the point, apparently on purpose. If God is going to eliminate sin from Heaven, that means we no longer have free will to choose sin. If this is the case, why didn't he just do that from the beginning? Isn't that the entire argument for having the Tree of Knowledge in Eden, because God "wanted us to have free will"?

If models T Ford cars are no longer made, we can't buy that model. Whoopee do.

Matthew 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value.

Could you give me the verse from Jeremiah where this is stated?

"It was an ancient custom among the Jews, says Dr. Lightfoot, to divide the Old Testament into three parts: the first beginning with the law was called THE LAW; the second beginning with the Psalms was called THE PSALMS; the third beginning with the prophet in question was called JEREMIAH: thus, then, the writings of Zechariah and the other prophets being included in that division that began with Jeremiah, all quotations from it would go under the name of this prophet."
Matthew - Chapter 27 - Adam Clarke Commentary on StudyLight.org

There are a few other interpretations as well. No sense playing up on the unknown, as if it would do anything but make perfect sense. God knows.

So can a Christian accept evolution as a method of God's act of creation?

No. Hell no.

There is no evidence either way. It is more logical to assume the laws of the past were the same as now. If can use present day phenomena to reliably explain the past, why assume it was different?

It is more logical to assume the proven and witnessed God was right all along. There is NO reason to assume a same state future. None. The future is similar to, and the key to the past.

You are 100% sure that your interpretation of the Bible is 100% right?

On some things, of course. On the issues of creation, and Eden, and the flood, we must resort to common sense, reason, clues, evidence, etc...Oh, and did I mention the word of God?

The formation is pillow lava in the middle of a desert. If it was formed "pre-split", how was it formed?

Did you know that the waters were also separated from the land in creation week? That means stuff was underwater. Am I missing something somewhere?

We know pillow lava is formed under water now, so we assume it was formed underwater in the past (because there is no reason to assume otherwise). What alternative explanation would you conclude as to how this pillow lava was formed, if it was a different method other than under water?

Well, so far, I have no reason to question that it would have been formed in water? If I get such a reason, we can move on from there. Meanwhile, why sweat???

 

[dad]

We are discussing your split/merge idea. You know, the one you made a pdf file of? Stop Dodging! If the Bible is easy to interpret, why don't other Christians embrace your split/merge theology? How can you tell if you are wrong?

Not all things are meant to be revealed at once!

What "indications?" There are certainly none in scripture and there are none in the physical world.

Spirits among men. Long lives. And rapid plant growth, and different different light. To name a few.

I was refering to other Christians. Stop Dodging!

What, you expect all believers would know by osmosis of this new thing? Give em time.

You are purposely obtuse. What evidence would you accept that would falsify your split/merge theology? Give me a specific example. Stop Dodging!

Being shown false is a concept for so called science! It had better get used to it! God and His word have a different concept. Learning why He was right!

What does that have to do with the question of does belief indicate truth?
Stop Dodging!

In the case of so called science, no. It does not! In the case of God, it does.

Got any tough ones??

 

[Tomatoman]

This has just got silly.

Dad has got boring now. He's a troll. He's just wasting everyone's time.

If he isn't a troll he needs intensive psychiatric treatment. End of.

 

[dad]

This has just got silly.

Dad has got boring now. He's a troll. He's just wasting everyone's time.

If he isn't a troll he needs intensive psychiatric treatment. End of.

Nothing silly about the expose of the basis of science. What is silly is the inability of some to be able to deal with it.

 

[Tomatoman]

Do you believe you are special, dad? After all, you are the only one to have had the revelation of a different past state; you are unique.

Do you believe that God has chosen you to reveal this to man?

 

[dad]

Do you believe you are special, dad? After all, you are the only one to have had the revelation of a different past state; you are unique.

Do you believe that God has chosen you to reveal this to man?

Do you believe that there is no God, and that it doesn't matter that a same state past may not have existed, and that there is no proof whatsoever? Do you think the new heavens that the bible says are coming are a lie? My deduction of a different state past was based on evidence..history and the bible, and the limits of man's actual knowledge. Do you feel it is OK to make up demonic godless stuff, when you have no evidence?

Do you think you have a point, ot that you might have one one day?

 

[Tomatoman]

Try answering the questions you are asked, dad.

 

[Tomatoman]

Right, I know I'm getting sucked into dad's stupid game again, but I'll answer his questions in the vain hope that he'll answer the questions he's avoided and dodged and squirmed and blocked and denied and blanked. I know he won't answer any of those questions, but I'll test him just to see.

dad:

Do you believe that there is no God,

I don't know

and that it doesn't matter that a same state past may not have existed, and that there is no proof whatsoever?

There is no evidence to suggest the past was different. Until there is compelling evidence to the contrary I'll believe what everyone else except you believes, that the past was exactly the same as the present.

Do you think the new heavens that the bible says are coming are a lie?

Yes.

My deduction of a different state past was based on evidence..history and the bible,

And yet, you are unique in coming to this deduction. Perhaps you've made some errors?

and the limits of man's actual knowledge.

what you actually mean is the limits of your knowledge, which seems to be very limited indeed.

Do you feel it is OK to make up demonic godless stuff, when you have no evidence?

First of all I haven't done any such thing.
Second, since when did Godless beliefs equal demonic beliefs?
Third, you have the nerve to mention evidence. We're still waiting for the evidence of your hypothesis which you've been very reluctant to produce, basically because you haven't got any. The evidence against your idea is called 'the real world', i.e. everything. One can only conclude you are playing silly games. Like a troll. Or are mad.

Do you think you have a point, ot that you might have one one day?

This is clearly problematic for you, but I am not the focus of this so-called debate. You are. You. Not me. You.

Right, would you care to answer the questions you've avoided now? You'll find the questions repeated for your benefit several times by different people throughout the thread all the way up to the current page.

 

[BananaSlug]

Lots of verses in the link.

All of those verses are based on your personal interpretation. I would like to see a verse that explicitly states the past was different from the present.

What about it? Looks more like something I call pictures..

Heiroglyphics. Egyptian writing.

Prove it.

http://digitalcase.case.edu:9000/fedora/get/ksl:breanc00/breanc00.pdf

This is translated text of Egypt's dynasties from the 1st through the 13th. The 1st-6th dynasties are from before the supposed "split".

Nope. Your dates are wrong, support em....if you can.

How are they wrong? Do you disagree with Egyptian records? The Egyptian records that you claim support your "past state" theology?

If models T Ford cars are no longer made, we can't buy that model. Whoopee do.

Let me ask it again considering your attempt to sidestep the question.

If God is going to eliminate sin from Heaven, that means we no longer have free will to choose sin. If this is the case, why didn't he just do that from the beginning? Isn't that the entire argument for having the Tree of Knowledge in Eden, because God "wanted us to have free will"?

"It was an ancient custom among the Jews, says Dr. Lightfoot, to divide the Old Testament into three parts: the first beginning with the law was called THE LAW; the second beginning with the Psalms was called THE PSALMS; the third beginning with the prophet in question was called JEREMIAH: thus, then, the writings of Zechariah and the other prophets being included in that division that began with Jeremiah, all quotations from it would go under the name of this prophet."
Matthew - Chapter 27 - Adam Clarke Commentary on StudyLight.org

Matthew 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value.

So could you give me the verse from Jeremiah where this is stated?

There are a few other interpretations as well. No sense playing up on the unknown, as if it would do anything but make perfect sense. God knows.

So which interpretation is correct?

No. Hell no.

Why not? Are you saying Cabal is not a Christian? Are you saying that Metherion is not a Christian? Would you say a Christian that accepts evolution is not a "true Christian"?

It is more logical to assume the proven and witnessed God was right all along. There is NO reason to assume a same state future. None. The future is similar to, and the key to the past.

If we can use present day phenomena to reliably explain the past, why assume it was different?

On some things, of course. On the issues of creation, and Eden, and the flood, we must resort to common sense, reason, clues, evidence, etc...Oh, and did I mention the word of God?

So you are 100% sure that you are right?

Did you know that the waters were also separated from the land in creation week? That means stuff was underwater. Am I missing something somewhere?

So you agree that "pre-split" pillow lava could have formed underwater?

Well, so far, I have no reason to question that it would have been formed in water? If I get such a reason, we can move on from there. Meanwhile, why sweat???

Well, if "pre-split" pillow lava can be formed underwater, then that is one line of evidence that shows past events worked the same way as present events. If there is no difference in how "past state" pillow lava was formed, why assume everything else was different?

 

[Split Rock]

Not all things are meant to be revealed at once!

At once, huh? Christainity has been around for about 2,000 years... The Old Testament even longer..did God wait all this time for his "little echo" to reveal all? You are also contradicting your previous statement that the bible is easy as pie to interpret. But then, you are full of contradictions, aren't you?

Spirits among men. Long lives. And rapid plant growth, and different different light. To name a few.

None are indications that the physical laws were different "pre-split."

What, you expect all believers would know by osmosis of this new thing? Give em time.

Again, how much time? Another 2,000 years? Or is it more likely that you are simply wrong?

Being shown false is a concept for so called science! It had better get used to it! God and His word have a different concept. Learning why He was right!

We are not talking about science... we are talking about you and your split/merge nonsense. Clearly, there is no evidence that would convince you that you could possibly, maybe be wrong. Not even from scripture.

In the case of so called science, no. It does not! In the case of God, it does.

So, the 911 hijackers were correct, since their faith surpases your own. yes?

Got any tough ones??

I have often said you are the ultimate evolutionary form of Creationist. This thread confirms my hypothesis. Let me state what you seem to be afraid to. The reason you are certain that you are correct is because.. well... you are. Your belief must be correct because... well.. it must. You cannot accept the possibility that your interpretation of scripture is anything but The Truth and must represent God's Ultimate Authority. Anyone who believes differently, with the same or even greater amount of faith, is simply wrong. They are all deluded.. but not you. You are special. You are God's Little Echo. You will reveal The Truth.

In reality, you are simply a watered down version of all the other False prophets that have popped up over the centuries. What the Bible calls "Wolves in sheeps clothing." You are a mediocre version of David Koresh. He called himself "The Lamb of God." You call yourself "The Little Echo of God." You do well to post here, however, and demonstrate to all the lurkers what Creationism is all about. For that, you should be proud.

 

[dad]

dad:
I don't know
There is no evidence to suggest the past was different. Until there is compelling evidence to the contrary I'll believe what everyone else except you believes, that the past was exactly the same as the present.

You are in no position to declare either the far past, nor the future exactly any way at all! really. You may present evidence if you had any, but you may not declare it some way, because it fits a world view. There are rules.

And yet, you are unique in coming to this deduction. Perhaps you've made some errors?

Perhaps you can point an error out. I did that for so called science! It sits on an unproven, unknown assumptive premise.

what you actually mean is the limits of your knowledge, which seems to be very limited indeed.

No, I mean the limits of science. It deals only in the physical, and is of course limited to that. If the far past was more than just that alone, it can't go there.

First of all I haven't done any such thing.
Second, since when did Godless beliefs equal demonic beliefs?

Since they lead to godless absurd lies, that cannot stand the light of day, and oppose creation.

Third, you have the nerve to mention evidence. We're still waiting for the evidence of your hypothesis which you've been very reluctant to produce, basically because you haven't got any. The evidence against your idea is called 'the real world', i.e. everything. One can only conclude you are playing silly games. Like a troll. Or are mad.

I assume you can read. The fact is, that the bible and history support a different state past. The evidence agrees. Really. On the losing other hand, so called science has zero evidence for the required present state in the past and future is bases all, repeat all, yes literally all of it's insane claims on!

This is clearly problematic for you, but I am not the focus of this so-called debate. You are. You. Not me. You.

I understand you think that. Get over it. The focus of the thread is the lie that some missing link led from beast to man. It is exposed as false. So we are looking at the reasons why they fail. Why they end up with falsehoods. That reason is the foundational assumption and belief they rest on. That is clearly problematic for you. The different creation state, and future state of the new heavens is untouchable, unassailable by silly men working with a small part of the facts.

No way out for so called science. It is only a matter of time before the fumeral is announced for it.

 

[dad]

All of those verses are based on your personal interpretation. I would like to see a verse that explicitly states the past was different from the present.

I would like to see a verse that explicitly states that Christ would first come as a child, and die, and return later. Seems like one sort of needs to look at the whole picture, and get some balance and context. The differences in the far past and the future in the bible are many and clear. Do you get that much? Like 2 plus 2 is four. If a garden was planted in a week, it must have grown fast. If we lived 1000 years, something must have been different, etc.

Heiroglyphics. Egyptian writing.

Yes, after Babel, man could noo longer talk to other men hardly, so had to resort to this. So?

http://digitalcase.case.edu:9000/fedora/get/ksl:breanc00/breanc00.pdf

This is translated text of Egypt's dynasties from the 1st through the 13th. The 1st-6th dynasties are from before the supposed "split".

The link was no good. The dates are no good either! I figure that id Egypt was here after the split, it would only have been very very early Egypt. Any dats I looked at crumbled like dust in the wind, that suggest anything different.



[quote[How are they wrong? Do you disagree with Egyptian records? The Egyptian records that you claim support your "past state" theology?[/quote] No Egyptian records in general, they would be post flood and split. Only the very early records. For example, they claimed that the first kings, if I recall were gods. (spirit beings) That seems different!?

Let me ask it again considering your attempt to sidestep the question.

If God is going to eliminate sin from Heaven, that means we no longer have free will to choose sin. If this is the case, why didn't he just do that from the beginning? Isn't that the entire argument for having the Tree of Knowledge in Eden, because God "wanted us to have free will"?

How would I know? I vote that there is no more sin in heaven. That would make it quite heavenly, the way I figure.. So, all we may have to worry about is now. Jesus covered that. So relax. be happy. Give your head a rest, get saved.

Matthew 27:9

Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value.

So could you give me the verse from Jeremiah where this is stated?



So which interpretation is correct?

Well, I usually look to one of them that leave God looking good. Seems to work pretty good.

Why not? Are you saying Cabal is not a Christian? Are you saying that Metherion is not a Christian? Would you say a Christian that accepts evolution is not a "true Christian"?

Our opinions on science and creation are not what make us Christian. Jesus is. Don't blow everything out of proportion. The creation debate is a small part of the picture, and not a part of salvation.

If we can use present day phenomena to reliably explain the past, why assume it was different?

If we can use different state past day phenomena to reliably explain the past, why assume it was the same?

So you are 100% sure that you are right?

So far, it is the best fit..

So you agree that "pre-split" pillow lava could have formed underwater?

So far, the evidence seems to indicate that, at first boo.

Well, if "pre-split" pillow lava can be formed underwater, then that is one line of evidence that shows past events worked the same way as present events. If there is no difference in how "past state" pillow lava was formed, why assume everything else was different?

Ah...a point. OK. Well, there was water. There was hot rock stuff. There was a lot of things we now have. Trees, plants animals, humans, air, etc. Just because we walked, does that mean that gravity was the same as we know it now? Just because a tree grew, does that mean it used our light, and had a growth period that was the same?? No. What can you telll us about the pillow lava? Anything more than...'it seems to look sort of the same'..?

 

[Nostromo]

If we can use different state past day phenomena to reliably explain the past, why assume it was the same?

You can't reliably explain the past using the 'different state' idea. Your own argument rests on us having no explicit knowledge of the past.

 

[BananaSlug]

I would like to see a verse that explicitly states that Christ would first come as a child, and die, and return later. Seems like one sort of needs to look at the whole picture, and get some balance and context. The differences in the far past and the future in the bible are many and clear. Do you get that much? Like 2 plus 2 is four. If a garden was planted in a week, it must have grown fast. If we lived 1000 years, something must have been different, etc.

My next question is, is your interpretation fallible? Could you be wrong?

Yes, after Babel, man could noo longer talk to other men hardly, so had to resort to this. So?

It is writing, including the dates of Pharaohs' rule.

The link was no good. The dates are no good either! I figure that id Egypt was here after the split, it would only have been very very early Egypt. Any dats I looked at crumbled like dust in the wind, that suggest anything different.

Teti I
Userkare (possibly a usurper)
Pepi I
Merenre I
Pepi II
(possibly) Merenre II
Nitocris
several unattested pharaohs:
Neferka
Nefer
Aba

According to you, the "split" occurred some time during the 6th dynasty of Egypt. So it happened sometime during the reign on one of these pharaohs.

Are you saying that the dates are wrong? If so, how can 3,000 years of Egyptian pharaohs live in a time span of <2,000 years from after the "split" around 2345 B.C. to when Egypt fell to Roman rule in 31 B.C.?

No Egyptian records in general, they would be post flood and split. Only the very early records. For example, they claimed that the first kings, if I recall were gods. (spirit beings) That seems different!?

So how can 3,000 years of "post-split" Egyptian history fit into the period from 2345 B.C. to 31 B.C.?

How would I know? I vote that there is no more sin in heaven. That would make it quite heavenly, the way I figure.. So, all we may have to worry about is now. Jesus covered that. So relax. be happy. Give your head a rest, get saved.

So you agree that we will not have free will in Heaven. Okie-dokie.

Well, I usually look to one of them that leave God looking good. Seems to work pretty good.

Isn't that all relative? Some Christians think God creating through evolution is a equally awe-inspiring feat if not more so.

Our opinions on science and creation are not what make us Christian. Jesus is. Don't blow everything out of proportion. The creation debate is a small part of the picture, and not a part of salvation.

If it is just "a small part of the picture" why worry about it?

If we can use different state past day phenomena to reliably explain the past, why assume it was the same?

Explain this using "past-state" terms. According to "present-state" science, the rock is folded due to intense heat caused by pressure due to crustal collisions (continental uplift, etc). What is your "past-state" explanation?


[quote}Ah...a point. OK. Well, there was water.[/quote]

Was this "present-state" H2O water?

There was hot rock stuff.

Was this "present-state" silica based rock?

Just because we walked, does that mean that gravity was the same as we know it now?

Why would it not be?

What can you telll us about the pillow lava? Anything more than...'it seems to look sort of the same'..?

You have already agreed that "past-state" pillow lava could have formed underwater. You have already agreed that the "present-state" explanation for pillow lava formation is a reliable explanation for the past formation of pillow lava. Thank you.

 

[dad]

You can't reliably explain the past using the 'different state' idea. Your own argument rests on us having no explicit knowledge of the past.

Yes, I can. Name anything, and I can explain it with a different state far past. I have the explicit knowledge of One that told us about it, and was there. So called science has nothing but insane dreams and deathly morbid and animalistic claims.

 

[dad]

My next question is, is your interpretation fallible? Could you be wrong?

About what? The future? No. All Christians believe in a new heavens. About Adam? No, he really lived...



It is writing, including the dates of Pharaohs' rule.



Teti I
Userkare (possibly a usurper)
Pepi I
Merenre I
Pepi II
(possibly) Merenre II
Nitocris
several unattested pharaohs:
Neferka
Nefer
Aba [/quote]

Your site gave dates " 2400--2390 BCE " but no basis for them, it is a useless site. I automatically assume that any person or site, or anything at all that uses "BCE" is out to lunch. It is a virtual certainty. Really. Let's face it, unless you want to resort to the king lists, and I doubt that, the so called dates are present state decay based. Worthless.

According to you, the "split" occurred some time during the 6th dynasty of Egypt. So it happened sometime during the reign on one of these pharaohs.

Earth calling Bslug...the dates are wrong wrong wrong. Try to support them and watch them crumble.

Are you saying that the dates are wrong? If so, how can 3,000 years of Egyptian pharaohs live in a time span of <2,000 years from after the "split" around 2345 B.C. to when Egypt fell to Roman rule in 31 B.C.?

At last, a glimmer of hope. You are starting to catch on...the dates are wrong wrong wrong.

So how can 3,000 years of "post-split" Egyptian history fit into the period from 2345 B.C. to 31 B.C.?

Easy, same way a pink unicorn can fit. Your dates are wrong. Nothing needs to fit a dream date.

So you agree that we will not have free will in Heaven. Okie-dokie.

Nope. I suspect that sin will no longer be one of the things around to chose from.

Isn't that all relative? Some Christians think God creating through evolution is a equally awe-inspiring feat if not more so.

Nonsense. Nothing could be awe inspiring about a god that lies, and makes up stories about Adam, and etc, if they never existed.

If it is just "a small part of the picture" why worry about it?

I might ask the education systems of the world the same thing. Why make stuff up to replace God?

Explain this using "past-state" terms. According to "present-state" science, the rock is folded due to intense heat caused by pressure due to crustal collisions (continental uplift, etc). What is your "past-state" explanation?

Maybe they are tight? See, the separatiion of continents happened at the same time as the split, basically, best I can tell so far. So, why not?


[quote}Was this "present-state" H2O water?.[/quote] Will the river of life in New Jerusalem be present state water? Who can know that? If we take water into space, could it not fly apart as droplets? Well, if we didn't have gravity as we know it, but a balance of forces that resulted in sort of the same thing, how would present water react? There are many factors to weigh. There was water, yes. Without the present state, some differences might be expected.

Was this "present-state" silica based rock?

Where is it from?

Why would it not be?

Well, if matter is spiritual and physical, gravity could not affect us in the way it does. Gravity is apparently a force that works on physical objects! Jesus rose up to heaven in His spiritual and physical body. The New Jerusalem is 1500 miles high, doesn't sound like gravity will limit the home owners!

You have already agreed that "past-state" pillow lava could have formed underwater. You have already agreed that the "present-state" explanation for pillow lava formation is a reliable explanation for the past formation of pillow lava. Thank you.

Nope. How would I know whether water used to cover some of Autralia after the flood for a bit? If so, could the area have been uplifted, or pushed around, so that molten rock formed? If so maybe it could have been in the changeover time? Or, if it was formed on dry land pre split, then we would be looking at pillow lava forming differently! You haven't given details enough to reach sweeping conclusions.

 

[Nostromo]

Yes, I can. Name anything, and I can explain it with a different state far past.

I'm sure you could just make things up on the spot but I wouldn't mind something a little more specific, like what actually was different about the past and how we could independently show that to be true.

I have the explicit knowledge of One that told us about it, and was there.

Out of curiosity, are you saying that it's in the Bible or that God personally tells you the answers?

 

[dad]

I'm sure you could just make things up on the spot but I wouldn't mind something a little more specific, like what actually was different about the past and how we could independently show that to be true.Out of curiosity, are you saying that it's in the Bible or that God personally tells you the answers?

It tells anyone that can read. It tells us there will be a new heavens, for example.

In the past, matter apparently did not retain heat long, if it produced much heat to begin with. Example, the lands and waters were separated in a week, no great heat.

 

[Tomatoman]

And dad ignored my questions. What a surprise.

He's a troll.

 

[Nostromo]

He's a troll.

Yeah, I just wish I had something better to do with my time.

It tells anyone that can read. It tells us there will be a new heavens, for example.

Perhaps you could start your next post with "We know the Bible is accurate because...".

In the past, matter apparently did not retain heat long, if it produced much heat to begin with. Example, the lands and waters were separated in a week, no great heat.

Presumably there was some compensating mechanism to prevent Adam freezing to death?