Miss. prom canceled after lesbian's date request

[NotreDame]

Correct me if I'm wrong, you seem to have more legal knowledge than I do, but isn't discriminating against people on their gender like that illegal? i.e. males are allowed to do something, but females aren't, purely due to the gender of the people involved.... isn't that the textbook definition of gender discrimination?

I think I explained my position above.

Sounds fairly cut and dried so far as free speech goes to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, you seem to have more legal knowledge than I do, but isn't discriminating against people on their gender like that illegal? i.e. males are allowed to do something, but females aren't, purely due to the gender of the people involved.... isn't that the textbook definition of gender discrimination?

Yes but this does not render the discrimination illegal. The U.S. Supreme Court has persistently stated discrimination, including gender discrimination, is not necessarily constitutionally impermissible. Unfortunately, school dress codes have been an issue the U.S. Supreme Court has declined to decide by refusing to grant certiorari.

Sounds fairly cut and dried so far as free speech goes to me.

Does being with someone of the same sex send a message at all? ACLU is assuming a message exists. I am not contesting a message does not exist but I am also not entirely persuaded taking someone of the opposite sex, or of the same sex, to a school dance sends any message or expresses any message.

 

[LightHorseman]

Yes but this does not render the discrimination illegal. The U.S. Supreme Court has persistently stated discrimination, including gender discrimination, is not necessarily constitutionally impermissible. Unfortunately, school dress codes have been an issue the U.S. Supreme Court has declined to decide by refusing to grant certiorari.

Guess we'll have to see what happens

Does being with someone of the same sex send a message at all? ACLU is assuming a message exists. I am not contesting a message does not exist but I am also not entirely persuaded taking someone of the opposite sex, or of the same sex, to a school dance sends any message or expresses any message.

But surely whether something sends a message or not is at the discretion of the person trying to send the message, is it not? I mean, just because we don't understand the message implicit in, say, cubism, doesn't mean the artist isn't trying to send a valid message.

 

[NotreDame]

But surely whether something sends a message or not is at the discretion of the person trying to send the message, is it not? I mean, just because we don't understand the message implicit in, say, cubism, doesn't mean the artist isn't trying to send a valid message.

Well, according to the various decisions, the speech cannot be personal expression but rather must express a viewpoint and send a message, or the speaker so intended. In Texas v. Johnson, a case involving expression, the infamous flag burning case, the Court explained there needed to be an intent to express a message and whether it was likely those who viewed the message would understand it. "In deciding whether particular conduct possesses sufficient communicative elements to bring the First Amendment into play, we have asked whether "[a]n intent to convey a particularized message was present, and [whether] the likelihood was great that the message would be understood by those who viewed it."

 

[one11]

We weren't allowed to wear Christian-themed t-shirts or religious jewelry to school either.

That's nuts!

 

[christianmomof3]

It is Mississippi. Some high schools there cancelled proms for years because they did not want mixed race couples attending and I know of one school there that did not allow mixed race couples to attend prom until the year 2000.

 

[Washington]

An Update

​

In response to Mississippi schoolboard, Humanists pledge $20,000 for LGBT friendly prom.

In the memo announcing the dissolution of this years Prom the Itawamaba County school board expressed its "hope that private citizens will organize an event for the juniors and seniors." In response to this heartfelt wish, American Humanist Association members Todd and Diana Stiefel have made a $20,000 grant available in order to throw the Itawamba Agricultural High School their own, privately funded Senior Prom, open to all who wish to attend. As a fan of debate, this sort of tactical rebuttal is a thing of beauty. You want to enact a discriminatory policy against your students, then wash your hands of the whole thing? You want to leave it up to the invisible hand of the free-market to provide your students with a the most important dance of their young lives? That's fine. We do precisely that, tuxedo lesbians and all.
source



​

About the AHA

For more than half a century, the American Humanist Association has stood as the singular voice of humanism in the United States.

We strive to bring about a progressive society where being “good without god” is an accepted way to live life. We are accomplishing this through our defense of civil liberties and secular governance, by our outreach to the growing number of people without religious belief or preference, and through a continued refinement and advancement of the humanist worldview.

source and more
​

It's interesting, but not surprising, that it was a humanist organization that stepped forward to fund the canceled prom.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

they also weren't the first to step forward.

 

[LightHorseman]

they also weren't the first to step forward.

[citation needed]

 

[seashale76]

I wish people would realize that making an issue of something makes everything ever so much worse. I graduated from high school a heck of a long time ago. We had a lot of gay students at my school (in the bible belt too). Nobody made an issue out of the few who took a same sex date to prom or the one girl who wore a tux for her senior pics. It was not discussed or advertised. Nobody was out to make any statements or to make a spectacle of themselves or to protest anything. We went to prom and nothing cataclysmic happened. It was actually kind of boring.

My big questions:
1) Why didn't this girl simply show up to prom with her date?
2) Why did the world have to be informed of her intentions before the fact?
3) Why did the school have to have a dramatic reaction to her intentions?
4) Didn't they all realize that these actions would bring all of the dramatic individuals on both sides with an ax to grind out of the wood work?
5) I and other girls were forced to wear a much more hideous get up than a tux as part of a school band. Why aren't we protesting that sort of terrible fashion instead?
6) Plenty of people go to prom without dates, with groups of people, etc. The best ones have bands and a dj, plenty of food, places to take pictures, and enough adult supervision to make sure dubious things don't happen. I seriously doubt two girls showing up together should be something to make a big deal out of. Why can't people just go to prom or not go to prom like we did in the past? Anything else is simply ridiculous. It's a lame social function anyway.

 

[Maren]

My big questions:
1) Why didn't this girl simply show up to prom with her date?

I haven't seen anything definitive but I believe it is because the school required the name of the date for security reasons (this has become common practice in schools today).

2) Why did the world have to be informed of her intentions before the fact?

Because the school board decided to make an issue of it.

3) Why did the school have to have a dramatic reaction to her intentions?

Because they knew that they couldn't legally deny the right for the girl to bring another female student as her date. They decided they would rather cancel the whole thing rather than allow a gay couple into the prom.

4) Didn't they all realize that these actions would bring all of the dramatic individuals on both sides with an ax to grind out of the wood work?

I would expect that they did realize but they might have been naive.

 

[LightHorseman]

Seashale, I went to 2 formals in high school, and they were both kind of a bust. Had I not gone, it probably wouldn't really be any significant loss. However, thats not the point. The point is that I was able to go, with the person of my choice. The fact that in the long run, they turned out to be a bit of a wasted effort (from my perspective) is neither here nor there, because I was free to go and have the experience. Theres a huge difference between not going because you decide not to go, its silly, its a waste of time, whatever, and being told "you are not welcome here, you may not participate". Thats the issue.

And I think the general consensus was that people probable had to supply names for the people the tickets were for when buying them (though this is probably just an educated guess)

 

[seashale76]

Seashale, I went to 2 formals in high school, and they were both kind of a but. Had I not gone, it probably wouldn't really be any significant loss. However, thats not the point. The point is that I was able to go, with the person of my choice. The fact that in the long run, they turned out to be a bit of a wasted effort (from my perspective) is neither here nor there, because I was free to go and have the experience. Theres a huge difference between not going because you decide not to go, its silly, its a waste of time, whatever, and being told "you are not welcome here, you may not participate". Thats the issue.

And I think the general consensus was that people probable had to supply names for the people the tickets were for when buying them (though this is probably just an educated guess)

And reading my post you'll find that other gay people have and still are able to go to prom elsewhere today (and in the past) with no issues. You'll find that I'm not disagreeing with you.

Of course, this leads me to my next questions:

If they have to supply names to go with the tickets, how on earth are they to know that just because a student buys an extra ticket for another teen of the same sex that they are lesbians anyway? Would they still have called off the prom if they discovered she was taking her best friend, sister, or cousin?

 

[LightHorseman]

And reading my post you'll find that other gay people have and still are able to go to prom elsewhere today (and in the past) with no issues. You'll find that I'm not disagreeing with you.

Of course, this leads me to my next questions:

If they have to supply names to go with the tickets, how on earth are they to know that just because a student buys an extra ticket for another teen of the same sex that they are lesbians anyway? Would they still have called off the prom if they discovered she was taking her best friend, sister, or cousin?

From my reading of the surrounding data, apparently the two students in question were "out", so their buying of tickets together set off someone's alarm bells. Obviously if the two had kept their sexuality hidden, this may not have played out this way. Small towns, you know?

 

[Washington]

they also weren't the first to step forward.

So, watch got? Or is their identity a secret?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

[citation needed]

sorry, wasn't at my computer at the time and didn't have the link on hand. I just remember that someone in NO offered first.

HERE:

New Orleans hotel owner Sean Cummings told The Clarion-Ledger of Jackson he was so disappointed with the school board's decision he offered to transport the students in buses to the city and host a free prom at one of his properties.

"New Orleans, we're a joyful culture and a creative culture here and, if the school doesn't change its mind, we'd be delighted to offer them a prom in New Orleans," he told the newspaper. "Concluding your high school experience should be a joyful one. One shouldn't conclude that experience with all their friends on a negative note."

 

[Washington]

sorry, wasn't at my computer at the time and didn't have the link on hand. I just remember that someone in NO offered first.

HERE:

Good for him! And thanks for the info.

 

[LightHorseman]

sorry, wasn't at my computer at the time and didn't have the link on hand. I just remember that someone in NO offered first.

HERE:

Cool. Thanks for the info

ETA: Reps to Mr. Sean Cummings too.

 

[Wayte]

Excellent, somebody is showing the moral fiber to do what the school should have done.
The irony? A privately hosted prom will probably beat the tar outta anything the school coulda done

 

[one11]

I wish people would realize that making an issue of something makes everything ever so much worse. I graduated from high school a heck of a long time ago. We had a lot of gay students at my school (in the bible belt too). Nobody made an issue out of the few who took a same sex date to prom or the one girl who wore a tux for her senior pics. It was not discussed or advertised. Nobody was out to make any statements or to make a spectacle of themselves or to protest anything. We went to prom and nothing cataclysmic happened. It was actually kind of boring.

My big questions:
1) Why didn't this girl simply show up to prom with her date?
2) Why did the world have to be informed of her intentions before the fact?
3) Why did the school have to have a dramatic reaction to her intentions?
4) Didn't they all realize that these actions would bring all of the dramatic individuals on both sides with an ax to grind out of the wood work?
5) I and other girls were forced to wear a much more hideous get up than a tux as part of a school band. Why aren't we protesting that sort of terrible fashion instead?
6) Plenty of people go to prom without dates, with groups of people, etc. The best ones have bands and a dj, plenty of food, places to take pictures, and enough adult supervision to make sure dubious things don't happen. I seriously doubt two girls showing up together should be something to make a big deal out of. Why can't people just go to prom or not go to prom like we did in the past? Anything else is simply ridiculous. It's a lame social function anyway.

This particular school had an opposite sex date only for the prom policy.

Info here:

http://www.clarionledger.com/assets/pdf/D0153551311.PDF

 

[PreachersWife2004]

This particular school had an opposite sex date only for the prom policy.

Info here:

http://www.clarionledger.com/assets/pdf/D0153551311.PDF

While I understand the concept, that kind of policy is near impossible to enforce (except for going to the extreme and canceling the whole prom!). They probably ought to do away with it.