Miss. prom canceled after lesbian's date request

[NotreDame]

Bias can cloud how you achieve a conclusion. For examples: the Scottsboro Boys were nine young men wrongfully convicted of a rape they did not commit. But because the justice system was biased against their skin color they were executed. Scottsboro Boys - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You do realize, CaptainNemo, why this is not a strong argument?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Bias can cloud how you achieve a conclusion. For examples: the Scottsboro Boys were nine young men wrongfully convicted of a rape they did not commit. But because the justice system was biased against their skin color they were executed. Scottsboro Boys - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

True, bias can affect an outcome. But that doesn't mean that anyone participating in this thread with a bias can't present a well-informed opinion, which seems to be the overlying message. And...bias isn't one-sided. If I have a bias simply because I believe homosexuality is wrong, then those who believe it is okay must also have a bias.

I don't necessarily agree with what the school did, but at the same time I really don't blame them. They're in a lose-lose situation and to me it seems like it was easier to make everyone mad than just one group. Perhaps they figured it would be harder to be sued. Maybe this will force them to rethink their "date policy".

 

[CaptainNemo1138]

You do realize, CaptainNemo, why this is not a strong argument?

Because the God Emperor of Mankind wills it not to be?

 

[NotreDame]

Actually, there appears to be a few cases that are considered to state exactly that -- that choice of date is a form of freedom of expression. Rather than make assumptions by what non-lawyers make about the case and commenting on them, I would encourage you to read the complaint that was filed in court and comment on that. Also, if you look at the attachments, the original letter to the school district is included which gives the relevant case law concerning the right to bring a same-gendered date.

Further, it is interesting to note in the complaint that the written dress code of the school has no language that would suggest a female student cannot wear a tux to the prom.

The choice of a date is the state choosing to open a forum for expression but the state can likewise close the forum designated for expression. Furthermore, to complicate the issue of creating a forum for expression is the issue of government as speaker. Is the government speaking at a school sponsored event such as the prom, like they are said to be doing at school sponsored athletic events such as basketball, baseball, and football games? If so, then the government, as speaker, can censor any speech it wants without implicating the 1st Amendment.

This is just a general analysis and time has not permitted me to read the complaint in detail or perform lengthy research.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Actually, there appears to be a few cases that are considered to state exactly that -- that choice of date is a form of freedom of expression. Rather than make assumptions by what non-lawyers make about the case and commenting on them, I would encourage you to read the complaint that was filed in court and comment on that. Also, if you look at the attachments, the original letter to the school district is included which gives the relevant case law concerning the right to bring a same-gendered date.

Further, it is interesting to note in the complaint that the written dress code of the school has no language that would suggest a female student cannot wear a tux to the prom.

thanks for posting that link, Maren.

Seems to me they're going to have a hard time proving that the District canceled the event to avoid any constitutional obligations to the plaintiff. Prom isn't a constitutional right. It's a privilege and I know several people who were denied going to the prom because of academic standing or other factors.

Them telling her she couldn't wear a tux to the prom was just rather stupid. I think a tux is far more acceptable than some of the stuff I've seen at proms. I have a picture in my photobucket album of a pregnant teen at her prom in a dress that had the belly area cut out. Seriously. Nothing wrong with a tux. They're also cheaper than prom dresses.

I'm going to try to follow this case. I'm interested in the outcome, not because it will change anything our school is doing, but because the legal portions of the case are intriguing.

 

[NotreDame]

Because the God Emperor of Mankind wills it not to be?

LOL...no...it is not a strong argument because the link you provided presumes its own conclusion, which makes the argument circular, i.e. begs the question.

Furthermore, while a bias may explain why someone reached a particular conclusion, it does not show the conclusion to be false, an important point to remember and a point your link does not contest.

 

[CaptainNemo1138]

thanks for posting that link, Maren.

Seems to me they're going to have a hard time proving that the District canceled the event to avoid any constitutional obligations to the plaintiff. Prom isn't a constitutional right. It's a privilege and I know several people who were denied going to the prom because of academic standing or other factors.

Them telling her she couldn't wear a tux to the prom was just rather stupid. I think a tux is far more acceptable than some of the stuff I've seen at proms. I have a picture in my photobucket album of a pregnant teen at her prom in a dress that had the belly area cut out. Seriously. Nothing wrong with a tux. They're also cheaper than prom dresses.

I'm going to try to follow this case. I'm interested in the outcome, not because it will change anything our school is doing, but because the legal portions of the case are intriguing.

Well, the fact the school canceled the whole prom is important as well. If the Plaintiff can prove it was closed because of the school boards opinion of her relationship, then she ahas a case. If she cannot, then there is little but circumstantial evidence, however likely it may be.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Well, the fact the school canceled the whole prom is important as well. If the Plaintiff can prove it was closed because of the school boards opinion of her relationship, then she ahas a case. If she cannot, then there is little but circumstantial evidence, however likely it may be.

but her argument is that they closed it to avoid their constitutional obligation to her. I ask: what constitutional obligation?

For all we know, they had been planning to cancel it anyway and the timing just sucked.

 

[CaptainNemo1138]

LOL...no...it is not a strong argument because the link you provided presumes its own conclusion, which makes the argument circular, i.e. begs the question.

Furthermore, while a bias may explain why someone reached a particular conclusion, it does not show the conclusion to be false, an important point to remember and a point your link does not contest.

But the false conclusion was reached only due to bias, in this case, racism. If you can find a record of this case showing the convicted were actually guilty, then please feel free to post it.

 

[NotreDame]

But the false conclusion was reached only due to bias, in this case, racism. If you can find a record of this case showing the convicted were actually guilty, then please feel free to post it.

What false conclusion? Second, you are assuming, along with the source of your link, A.) bias was involved and B.) bias was the result of the outcome. It does not make sense to assume such things.

Furthermore, it appears having a defense counsel not familiar with criminal law, and similarly incapable of preparing an adequate defense, explains the outcome as opposed to bias. From the link you provided, "and the defense attorneys had little experience in criminal law and no time to prepare their cases.

This is not a good example to make your point.

 

[Smidlee]

Them telling her she couldn't wear a tux to the prom was just rather stupid. I think a tux is far more acceptable than some of the stuff I've seen at proms. I have a picture in my photobucket album of a pregnant teen at her prom in a dress that had the belly area cut out. Seriously. Nothing wrong with a tux. They're also cheaper than prom dresses.

Also making a fuss that someone can't wear a tux is equal stupid. My son was going to a church event where the man require all boys going to wear a tie. My son thought it was stupid which I agree but told him it was just as stupid making a big deal over having to wear a tie. So even though I'm not crazy about tie I will wear one if required. Often the best choice is keeping the peace.

 

[CaptainNemo1138]

but her argument is that they closed it to avoid their constitutional obligation to her.

She could argue that the Board was infringing on her right to the Pursuit of Happiness.

For all we know, they had been planning to cancel it anyway and the timing just sucked.

Anything is possible, but not everything is probable.

 

[LightHorseman]

Once again, all this Christian pro and con is very interesting... but of what possible relevence is it to the way a public school conducts itself and the standards to which it holds its students?

 

[CaptainNemo1138]

What false conclusion? Second, you are assuming, along with the source of your link, A.) bias was involved and B.) bias was the result of the outcome. It does not make sense to assume such things.

Furthermore, it appears having a defense counsel not familiar with criminal law, and similarly incapable of preparing an adequate defense, explains the outcome as opposed to bias. From the link you provided, "and the defense attorneys had little experience in criminal law and no time to prepare their cases.

This is not a good example to make your point.

They were black men, in the South, during the Great Depression, who ere accused of raping a white woman. To claim no bias was involved is like saying the KKK lynched everyone equally, blacks just got in they way a lot.

 

[DeathMagus]

Bias can cloud how you achieve a conclusion. For examples: the Scottsboro Boys were nine young men wrongfully convicted of a rape they did not commit. But because the justice system was biased against their skin color they were executed. Scottsboro Boys - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ah, but here's the rub. Assuming the young men were innocent, the verdict was not wrong because of a bias - extant or not. Rather, the verdict would be wrong because of a lack of evidence. That bias exists in a given situation is, at most, a pertinent contextual fact. Bias itself, however, does not render a conclusion true or false. Bias can point to the possibility of a conclusion based upon fallacious reasoning, but it does not necessitate such.

 

[CaptainNemo1138]

Ah, but here's the rub. Assuming the young men were innocent, the verdict was not wrong because of a bias - extant or not. Rather, the verdict would be wrong because of a lack of evidence. That bias exists in a given situation is, at most, a pertinent contextual fact. Bias itself, however, does not render a conclusion true or false.

But if a person believes that a black man is naturally inferior, and more likely to be criminal, then wouldn't that lead him to conclude the Defendant was guilty?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Once again, all this Christian pro and con is very interesting... but of what possible relevence is it to the way a public school conducts itself and the standards to which it holds its students?

somebody somewhere along the way asked why some Christians believe homosexuality is wrong.

The school is a public school and is not beholden to any Christian morals. But it does have its own set of rules. Unfortunately for this girl, the rules were rather specific that her date had to be of the opposite sex. It would appear, though, that she went about this appropriately, trying to challenge the rule in a non-confrontational manner.

I don't know how much authority the school itself has or what the District can decide, but it seems to me that the school should've just quietly abolished the opposite sex date rule and let the girl wear a tux to the prom. I assume that most people in the school are aware that she is a lesbian and that she has a girlfriend - I assume that because if it wasn't the case, would the girl really be so adamant about bringing her to the prom? I don't think too many people would've objected to two girls coming to the prom together. As I pointed out, we had girls who came to the proms together, and our whole softball team wore tuxes. I went to my junior prom with one of my best friends, who was a girl.

Unfortunately, the DADT aspect of this seems like it would've been the most hassle-free way to deal with it. The girl could've just shown up at prom with her date and wearing a tux. I have to wonder if there would've been any flap.

 

[LightHorseman]

somebody somewhere along the way asked why some Christians believe homosexuality is wrong.

The school is a public school and is not beholden to any Christian morals. But it does have its own set of rules. Unfortunately for this girl, the rules were rather specific that her date had to be of the opposite sex. It would appear, though, that she went about this appropriately, trying to challenge the rule in a non-confrontational manner.

I don't know how much authority the school itself has or what the District can decide, but it seems to me that the school should've just quietly abolished the opposite sex date rule and let the girl wear a tux to the prom. I assume that most people in the school are aware that she is a lesbian and that she has a girlfriend - I assume that because if it wasn't the case, would the girl really be so adamant about bringing her to the prom? I don't think too many people would've objected to two girls coming to the prom together. As I pointed out, we had girls who came to the proms together, and our whole softball team wore tuxes. I went to my junior prom with one of my best friends, who was a girl.

Unfortunately, the DADT aspect of this seems like it would've been the most hassle-free way to deal with it. The girl could've just shown up at prom with her date and wearing a tux. I have to wonder if there would've been any flap.

I commend your attitude towards the secular.

I don't know for certain, but if I had to speculate, thinking back to my school formal days, when one bought tickets, you had to give the name of the people who would be attending on the given tickets, supposed to help stop party crashers showing up. If this school had a similar system, the "asking permission" aspect may have been no more than the girls trying to buy tickets in their name. But that is pure speculation on my part.

 

[lawtonfogle]

You can toy with the words all you want- you KNOW what is being said. It is obvious (to anyone who isn't being willfully ignorant of the facts, that is.)

Yes, that women have a natural use, and going away from it is evil. Now, if they would only start teaching that in church.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I commend your attitude towards the secular.

I don't know for certain, but if I had to speculate, thinking back to my school formal days, when one bought tickets, you had to give the name of the people who would be attending on the given tickets, supposed to help stop party crashers showing up. If this school had a similar system, the "asking permission" aspect may have been no more than the girls trying to buy tickets in their name. But that is pure speculation on my part.

We must be getting old. I can't remember either, although I'm fairly certain that I purchased tickets or my date did and no names were necessary except that of the ticket bearer. In my sophomore year, the guy I originally was supposed to go to prom with broke up with me and two hours later asked the girl whom he'd been cheating with. I ended up going with a guy friend...but imagine if my ex had been forced to take me to prom because it was my name he had given as his date!

actually...now that I think about it...that might've been the perfect revenge...were I one to seek out such things.