Mishnah Seqal. 7:4

[daughterofzion]

Do any of you know what this verse says?

Jewish Mishnah Seqal. 7:4 -

 

[daughterofzion]

Many people have objected to the idea that Jesus was born in December, since there were shepherds staying in the fields (Luke 2:[8), and shepherds didn't normally do that in December. But the Jewish Mishnah Seqal. 7:4 reports that flocks were kept in the fields near Bethlehem, even in winter. The weather there is sometimes cold, but sometimes quite mild in December. This doesn't prove that Jesus was born in December, but it shows that the chief objection to a December birth isn't conclusive.
The Date of Jesus' Birth

 

[BarbB]

Sheep in a pasture in December is not the reason why Messianics do not generally celebrate Christmas.

Yeshua's birthday (or at least month/week) can be determined by when Mary went to see Elizabeth whose husband was a priest during a time which can be determined. I can't remember the intricacies now, but it's a rational way of determining that Yeshua was born during the fall feasts.

 

[Devasha]

The time of Zechariah's course of priestly service at the temple can be determined from Luke 1:5-8 and 1 Chronicles 24:7-18.

From this, it is likely that Zechariah's visitation by Gabriel took place on Shavuot (Pentecost), which occurred during his course of service. John (the Immerser) was probably conceived upon his return home, which then corresponds with Elizabeth being about 6 months pregnant when Mary visits her after she (Mary) has been visited as well and has conceived the Messiah, this chronology indicating the conception of the Messiah ("the light of the world") taking place during Chanukah.

It is probably not a coincidence that the Jews had for hundreds of years been setting a place for Elijah at the Passover Seder, as within this chronology that is most likely when John was born.

This places Yeshua's time of birth at Sukkot (Tabernacles). "...And the Word was made flesh and tabernacled among us..." --John 1:14

Probably the biggest clue to all of this is that YHWH does everything decently and in order with multiple prophetic fulfillments during His moedim (appointed times), such as the giving of His Torah at Mt. Sinai on Shavuot and then the giving of the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) some 1500 years later, also on Shavuot (Pentecost).

It always amazes me to see these beautiful patterns. YHWH is so awesome!

Oops, left out a pretty relevant fulfillment: Yeshua's sacrifice happening at Passover!

 

[visionary]

I always thought this website explained it best.

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/sukkoth.htm

 

[Tishri1]

I can't remember the intricacies

I doand your right! http://www.hatikva.org/articles/birth-of-yeshua-at-sukkot.html


An easy to document, but not well known fact, is the date of the birth of Yeshua. This is done by establishing several things:

• The date that Gabriel the angel tells Zechariah, the soon to be father of Yochanan, about his son's birth. (The birth date of Yochanan (John) is established by going forward nine months, the term of pregnancy).
• The approximate date of Miriam's (Mary's) conception.
• The date of Herod's death.

 

[daughterofzion]

Thank you all for your answers, still is there any such "verse" as this, and do any of you know what it says?

Jewish Mishnah Seqal. 7:4 -

 

[daughterofzion]

When was Jesus born?​

Some people have claimed that Jesus was born near the fall festivals. That is possible, but it is not proven. Luke 2:1-3 says that "everyone went to his own town to register." Why would "everyone" go to such trouble? Apparently it was required. However, it is not likely that Rome would risk a rebellion by requiring each person to go to his own city at the same time as the local religion required everyone to go to Jerusalem. Most likely, an empire-wide census would take several years, and would be administered locally, by local customs, taking into account local religious festivals.
Many people have objected to the idea that Jesus was born in December, since there were shepherds staying in the fields (Luke 2:8), and shepherds didn't normally do that in December. But the Jewish Mishnah Seqal. 7:4 reports that flocks were kept in the fields near Bethlehem, even in winter. The weather there is sometimes cold, but sometimes quite mild in December. This doesn't prove that Jesus was born in December, but it shows that the chief objection to a December birth isn't conclusive.
In the early third century (long before Constantine), Julius Africanus and Hippolytus came up with December 25 as the date of Jesus' birth. They don't tell us how they came up with this date, but John Chrysostom does. His calculation may have been innocent, or it may have been contrived. We do not know what his motive was. Therefore, we cannot say that the December 25 date was contrived simply because a pagan festival already existed on that date.
When the church first began celebrating Christmas, it had nothing to do with trees and holly and reindeer. All those were added centuries later in northern Europe. The fact that non-Christian customs were later associated with the festival does not prove that the date itself originated in paganism. It may have been based on calculation instead.
However, for the moment let us suppose that Christmas originated as a deliberate substitution for Saturnalia, a pagan holiday. Many of the people who attended church were recently-converted pagans. Some were not-yet converted pagans. They were attracted to the Saturnalia festivities, and sitting at home alone was not a desirable option when merrymaking could be heard in the streets all around. So, the theory goes, the church provided a clean alternative: going to church.
Would it be wrong to have a church service in deliberate opposition to Saturnalia? Of course not. There is no question of the church trying to worship God by the customs of the heathen -- the church is fighting against the customs of the heathen. Only the date is the same, and there is good reason to have church services on that date, on which members can invite their unconverted friends and family into church and away from paganism. At some point, Christians could have made the comparison: on this date, pagans celebrate the birth of the sun god, but we are worshipping the sun of righteousness (Mal. 4:2). We can celebrate his birth, too.
That may have been the way Christmas started. Apparently in the early centuries it was primarily a church service. And the strategy seems to have been successful: no one celebrates Saturnalia any more. Christians don't observe Christmas in honor of the sun god, just as they don't worship the little figurines that they may have in their homes or gardens. Although December 25, like many other dates, was once used for idol worship, it isn't anymore.

Michael Morrison

This is quoted from -http://www.wcg.org/lit/jesus/datebirth.htm ​

 

[Devasha]

Thank you all for your answers, still is there any such "verse" as this, and do any of you know what it says?

Jewish Mishnah Seqal. 7:4 -

I'm not familiar with the Mishnah, but discovered that it is part of the Talmud ( http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Mishnah ). I wondered if "Seqal." meant "Shekalim". I then found an article similar to the one you quoted which used the same reference here:

http://www.bible-history.com/quotes/harold_w_hoehner_1.html

And in that version, it says:

Finally, the Mishnah (Shekalim 7:4) implies that the sheep around Bethlehem were outside all year, and those that were worthy for the Passover offerings were in the fields thirty days before the feast, which would be as early as February, one of the coldest and rainiest months of the year.

So that seemed to confirm that it was tractate Shekalim being referred to. I found chapter 7 of Shekalim here:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t02/shk11.htm

Here is that chapter in its entirety:

CHAPTER VII.

MISHNA: (a) If money is found between the chest marked "Shekalim" and that marked "voluntary offerings," it belongs to the chest marked "Shekalim" if it lies nearer to the same, and to the one marked "voluntary offerings" if it be nearer that. So also does it belong to the voluntary offerings if it be found midway between the two chests. Money found lying between the chests marked "wood" and "incense" belongs, if it be nearer the former, to the former; if nearer the latter to the latter, and also to the latter if found midway between the two. Money found lying between the chest marked "bird-offerings" and the one marked "doves" for whole-offerings belongs to the former if it be nearer the former; and if nearer the latter to the latter, and also to the latter if midway between the two. Money found between ordinary moneys and the moneys of the second tithes belongs, if nearer the former to the former; if nearer the latter to the latter, and also to the latter if found midway between the two. a1 The rule is: One must be guided by the proximity, even in the case of the less important; but in the event of equidistance, (one must be guided) by the greater importance (of the moneys).
(b) Money found (in Jerusalem) on the place of the cattle-dealers is regarded as second tithe. b1 Money found on the Temple-mount


p. 30
is ordinary. b2 Other money found in Jerusalem generally, during the festivals, is regarded as second tithe; at other times of the year as ordinary. b3
(c) Meat found in the outer court (of the Temple) is considered whole-offering if in complete joints; if cut in pieces it is sin-offering. c1 Meat found in the city is considered peace-offering. c2 All such meat must be laid aside for putrefaction, and then be burned in the crematory. Meat found anywhere else in the land is prohibited (to be used) as carrion, if found in whole joints; if found cut in pieces, it may be eaten; and during the festivals, when a great deal of meat is on hand, even whole joints may be eaten. c3
(d) Cattle found all the way from Jerusalem to Migdal Eder, and in the same vicinity in all directions, are considered, if male, as whole-offerings, and if female as peace-offerings. R. Jehudah





p. 31
says: "If they are fit for Passover-offerings they may be used for such purpose, providing Passover is not more than thirty days off." d1
(e) In former days, the finder of such cattle was pledged until he brought the drink-offerings belonging to such sacrifices; every finder, however, letting such cattle stand and going on his way, the high court decreed, that the costs of the drink-offerings belonging thereto be defrayed out of the public money.
(f) R. Simeon says: Seven decrees were promulgated by that court, and the latter was one of them. Further: If a non-Israelite send whole-offerings with the necessary drink-offerings from over the sea, they are offered up; but if sent without the necessary drink-offerings, the costs of the latter are defrayed from public money. If, again, a proselyte died and left offerings, the drink-offerings, if also left by him, are offered up with the others; if not left, the costs of same are defrayed out of public money. It was also a decree of the court, that in the event of a high priest dying, the necessary meat-offering [Leviticus vi. 13] should be paid for out of the public treasury. R. Jehudah, however, declared, that this should be done at the expense of the heirs. In both cases a tenth of an ephah should be offered.
(g) Further, that the priests may (at the sacrificial meals) make use of the salt and the wood (from the sanctuary); that the priests do not commit a breach of trust when misusing the ashes of the red heifer g1; lastly, that the public treasury reimburse


p. 32
for paid bird-offerings that had become unfit. g2 R. Jose, however, says: "He who contracts for the furnishing of the bird-offerings must reimburse for the spoilt."

Because of the Passover reference, it appears that the (d) portion, which would be the 4th section of this chapter, is the relevant part, but I'm not seeing how that section "implies that the sheep around Bethlehem were outside all year".

 

[Devasha]

...no one celebrates Saturnalia any more. --Michael Morrison

This is quoted from -http://www.wcg.org/lit/jesus/datebirth.htm ​

Mr. Morrison is just dead wrong about this particular assertion.

http://www.bmna.org/annualevents/saturnalia.html

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Annual Events[/FONT] Saturnalia Festival

The Bryn Mawr Neighborhood Business Association produces the Saturnalia Festival, held in downtown Bryn Mawr on the “teenth” Saturday in December. Activities and attractions include musical performers, storytelling for children, a hayride tour of the neighborhood’s holiday lighting, masked reveling, hot chocolate and hot apple cider, toasted marshmallows and ‘smores, roasted chestnuts, and a visit from Santa Claus. Neighbors are invited to decorate their houses and gardens with lights to celebrate this event. Saturnalia brightens the darkest time of the year and offers an alternative to events such as Hanukkah, Winter Solstice, Christmas, and Kwanzaa. In the evening, following the event, Cuppa Java coffee shop hosts a party for adults.
The Saturnalia celebration, ancient Rome’s most popular, was named after Saturn, god of seed and sowing. With this event, Romans celebrated the completion of autumn planting. The Roman Empire originally celebrated for only one day, December 17, but Roman citizens later expanded celebrations to week-long celebrations, December 17-23. In addition to feasting, the Romans celebrated Saturnalia by giving gifts of wax candles and earthenware figures, and engaged in temporary role reversals. For the celebration, masters would serve their slaves. A funny felt-peaked hat was one costume component. Decorations included greenery swags and garland and gilded objects (gold – to symbolize the yellow sun), and candles in window openings.
Details for Saturnalia 2005
​

Here someone has proudly displayed the photos of their celebration of Saturnalia 2005:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10423137@N00/sets/1585611/

And of course, we can't forget the Druids:

http://www.threecranes.org/rituals/

 

[Tishri1]

Thank you all for your answers, still is there any such "verse" as this, and do any of you know what it says?

Jewish Mishnah Seqal. 7:4 -

I dont think soeven Shekalim doesnt appear to have it

 

[Devasha]

(d) Cattle found all the way from Jerusalem to Migdal Eder, and in the same vicinity in all directions, are considered, if male, as whole-offerings, and if female as peace-offerings. R. Jehudah says: "If they are fit for Passover-offerings they may be used for such purpose, providing Passover is not more than thirty days off."

I believe this is the reference being utilized in those articles because the part about Passover offerings and 30 days seems to be what this author used to extrapolate his February conclusion:

those that were worthy for the Passover offerings were in the fields thirty days before the feast, which would be as early as February, one of the coldest and rainiest months of the year.

Unless I'm missing something, though, I can't see that it says what the authors claim that it says.