Misconceptions

[Wolfe]

Some movies described that.

Religious people violated the laws. They SHOULD NOT.
Pagans violated the laws. They think the law is wrong.

Well, I think humans are innately morale creatures. (Though we are still sinful)
a lot of criminals will even tell you they regret doing the things they do.

 

[awitch]

Some movies described that.

And there's nothing more accurate to life than a Hollywood movie.

Religious people violated the laws. They SHOULD NOT.
Pagans violated the laws. They think the law is wrong.

You dodged my question about whether or not you think Pagans would just go on a wild rampage.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

juvenissum seems to recognize the sheer randomness of religious morality, but then fails to take the final step - namely that divorcing morality from reasonable rules of interpersonal conduct and trying to tie it to supposedly divine, inscrutable authorities is a Very Bad Idea.

It takes this special kind of religious/cultural randomness to come up with rules like: "If a child is born, the father has to skin a seal, wrap its hide around him, and then crawl fifty feet across the ice" or "collecting kindle wood on the wrong day of the week shall be punished by death", or also "boys who reach manhood shall take a sharp stone and slice open the lower side of their male organ - this will mark them as adults". (All of these exist, mind you.)

It's only when you determine morality via interpersonal, rational discussion that you end up with a solid foundation for pretty basic ideas like: "Hurting other people is bad". Authority cannot give you that.

Also, prison statistics paint a pretty scathing picture regarding ethical conduct. There's a disproportionate amount of Christians in jail, whereas atheists (just to mention one example) are underrepresented. (And no, we're not talking about people converting upon repentance here.)

 

[Wolfe]

juvenissum seems to recognize the sheer randomness of religious morality, but then fails to take the final step - namely that divorcing morality from reasonable rules of interpersonal conduct and trying to tie it to supposedly divine, inscrutable authorities is a Very Bad Idea.

It takes this special kind of religious/cultural randomness to come up with rules like: "If a child is born, the father has to skin a seal, wrap its hide around him, and then crawl fifty feet across the ice" or "collecting kindle wood on the wrong day of the week shall be punished by death", or also "boys who reach manhood shall take a sharp stone and slice open the lower side of their male organ - this will mark them as adults". (All of these exist, mind you.)

It's only when you determine morality via interpersonal, rational discussion that you end up with a solid foundation for pretty basic ideas like: "Hurting other people is bad". Authority cannot give you that.

Also, prison statistics paint a pretty scathing picture regarding ethical conduct. There's a disproportionate amount of Christians in jail, whereas atheists (just to mention one example) are underrepresented. (And no, we're not talking about people converting upon repentance here.)

Think that has to do with the not many atheist (Assume you're talking about america) in america.
They only make up about 3% or so of the population. ( .10% of prison population)
And the amount of muslims, hindus, budhist, jews, and 'other' (Altogether making about 16% of prisons).
And discounting the fact that people do convert, takes a lot away from it. Most people converting to islam (Making 15% of prison population), and like 7% to christianity.
Also Black people making up 37% of prisons, and making up over half of murder, armed robbery, and rape crimes (Due to poverty and gang issues. look at city crime statistics and the population statistics of that city. Big contributers being, compton, detroit, new york, and atlanta).
Doesn't seem to be a religious issue, more in line with a culture/poverty/gang issue.
All these statistics were found by googling, and checking various websites to get a common number.
Most of these statistics are from 2008 and 2013 (and even 1993 for some), so they're pretty old. Also, obviously not every prisoner was asked, or even answered. Using these statistics to discount christianity, is wrong.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Wolfe, I do not use these statistics to "discount Christianity".
I use them to illustrate that (non-)religion is obviously not a determining factor when it comes to being ethical, living a moral life, or being a law-abiding citizen. Religious people are not more moral, non-religious people are not less so.

I'd like to add another factor to your analysis:
atheism is closely tied to education. People with higher degree tend to be disproportionally less likely to be religious than those with a very basic education. Since access to (and identification with) educational institutions is closely tied to notions of class and wealth, ESPECIALLY in the US (where poor people have a hard time attending college), you'll find more religious people in prison simply because the disenfranchised poor are more likely to be arrested and sentenced.

 

[Wolfe]

Wolfe, I do not use these statistics to "discount Christianity".
I use them to illustrate that (non-)religion is obviously not a determining factor when it comes to being ethical, living a moral life, or being a law-abiding citizen. Religious people are not more moral, non-religious people are not less so.

I'd like to add another factor to your analysis:
atheism is closely tied to education. People with higher degree tend to be disproportionally less likely to be religious than those with a very basic education. Since access to (and identification with) educational institutions is closely tied to notions of class and wealth, ESPECIALLY in the US (where poor people have a hard time attending college), you'll find more religious people in prison simply because the disenfranchised poor are more likely to be arrested and sentenced.

Kinda what I was saying in a way.

I know all too well that you don't have to be an atheist to be a bad person. Met many a horrid christian.
Also, side note. In about 50 years or so, a lot of the scientist will probably convert from atheism to agnosticism. We're already finding a lot of evidence of intelligent design, the DNA, and the fine tuning of the universe.
One thing I never understood.. why people think you have to be stupid to be a christian. I may not be a genius, but I'm not dumb. I know you didn't say it, just addressing that science and religion go hand in hand. And I believe in the near future, science will definitively prove intelligent design, maybe even the christian God, I don't have any resources on hand about it(I'm sure they're somewhere on google just don't got the time right now to search em) But we're finding historical basis for the events in the bible.
I think it's sad really, that atheist(most from what I have seen) think that you have to be dumb, can't think for yourself, or can't live a good life, being religious. Great thing about Christianity, is that is can be proven(to be true or false), just hasn't yet.
Ehh, anyway if you wanna talk more about it, I'll start a convo, and you can reply. getting too many notifications as it is, so I'm gonna withdraw from this thread.

 

[seashale76]

1) That I worship the Theotokos and the saints.
2) That I engage in meaningless and dead ritual and vain repetition.
3) That I'm not a Christian. (This one covers those that think anyone not Evangelical isn't a Christian, to those that assume I'm Jewish, to that one person that thought I worshipped Zeus that one time.)
Runners up:
4) That I must hate anyone that isn't in my belief system.
5) That I couldn't possibly know about other faiths and/or engage in critical thinking because I am a believer.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

1) That I worship the Theotokos and the saints.
2) That I engage in meaningless and dead ritual and vain repetition.
3) That I'm not a Christian. (This one covers those that think anyone not Evangelical isn't a Christian, to those that assume I'm Jewish, to that one person that thought I worshipped Zeus that one time.)
Runners up:
4) That I must hate anyone that isn't in my belief system.
5) That I couldn't possibly know about other faiths and/or engage in critical thinking because I am a believer.

My kid’s Hebrew school studies world religions during the 10th grade. All of them said the Greek/Eastern Orthodox service was the most familiar to them.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

<Staff Edit>
That "outside source" is the functionality of coexistence within a social species. We instinctively react to anti-social behaviour. The person who never returns any favors soon finds that none will offer to help. The thief will draw anger and shunning, etc.

Now, communities come up with all sorts of arbitrary, nonsensical rules. It's the ones that can be reasonably argued for that may deserve a universal status among our species.

 

[Zoness]

Pagans has too many personal morals. That simply says it has no moral.
For example, I am sure you have your morals. But many other pagans won't agree with you. And sometimes, the laws do not agree with you. When you collect all personal pagan morals together, it is pretty much equivalent to anything goes.

You could make that argument about literally anything, though. A large enough group of people is going to have so much variation in their beliefs that you'll find at least one person who agrees with you and a billion who don't. It's hardly exclusive to paganism, but its more of a feature to drive one's own morality. Besides, like awitch said, that doesn't suddenly make things like rape and murder okay.

 

[Zoness]

Of course you can not. Basically because there is a law (force) there to stop you.
Take off the laws, then you can image the world of pagans.

I need money, and you are rich. Why can't I take some from you? I don't think it is immoral to do that.

This is ridiculous, as you're insinuating that the law is the only thing keeping me from doing whatever I want. This whole post is insulting but I'll address it anyways:

1. So you're telling me there's no Christians out there that would do whatever they want if there are no laws?
2. I adhere to the Wiccan rede, "as it harms none, do what you will" -- hardly a call to wanton violence and rampage.
3. If there were no laws I would not steal from or attack people because I'm not a jerk, I don't need the fear of a God to whip me into shape. I've learned on my own to not be a horrible person.

 

[Chesterton]

What country are you from, Chesterton? Just so I can give it a wide berth.

San Francisco.

...sex-positive...polyamorous, genderfluid pansexual,...

Okay I don't know what any of those words mean, but they sound like something you should bring up in private with a medical professional rather than on an internet forum.

Yet I'd never think less of a person (male or female) for refusing a sexual offer.

Then you're weird. Why not?

 

[awitch]

Okay I don't know what any of those words mean, but they sound like something you should bring up in private with a medical professional rather than on an internet forum.

It means gender isn't as binary as people think it is and it's wrong to shame people who don't adhere to traditional expectations.

Then you're weird. Why not?

I wouldn't think less of anyone for declining a sexual offer either. Why would someone think less of you for choosing not to have sex with someone?

 

[juvenissun]

You could make that argument about literally anything, though. A large enough group of people is going to have so much variation in their beliefs that you'll find at least one person who agrees with you and a billion who don't. It's hardly exclusive to paganism, but its more of a feature to drive one's own morality. Besides, like awitch said, that doesn't suddenly make things like rape and murder okay.

Not at all. I can not say the say in Christianity. There are indeed absolute right and absolute wrong in Christianity.

 

[juvenissun]

This is ridiculous, as you're insinuating that the law is the only thing keeping me from doing whatever I want.

I did not say that.
I said the laws stopped you to do something you might think it is right to do.

 

[awitch]

I did not say that.
I said the laws stopped you to do something you might think it is right to do.

And on the flip side, Christians want exemptions from the law so they can do what they think is right (for example, wanting to discriminate against LGBT citizens).

 

[juvenissun]

And on the flip side, Christians want exemptions from the law so they can do what they think is right (for example, wanting to discriminate against LGBT citizens).

Whatever against the Bible, it is wrong.
This is absolute, law or not.

Do you have anything which is absolute? Zero !

 

[awitch]

Whatever against the Bible, it is wrong.
This is absolute, law or not.

And what of laws that compliment the Bible? Are they absolutely right?

Do you have anything which is absolute? Zero !

Rape, child abuse, slavery, genocide...

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Okay I don't know what any of those words mean, but they sound like something you should bring up in private with a medical professional rather than on an internet forum.

Wow. What a toxic reply to a post that was intended to be supportive!
"I don't understand it, therefore it's icky, sick and pathological!"

Then you're weird. Why not?

Oh, I'm most definitely weird, and proudly so. Others might use the word "queer" as a synonym for that (as queerness encompasses much more than just same-sex orientation), but I can live with weird. Still better than those poor, unhappy sods who try to measure up against some imaginary norm and always find themselves lacking at every corner.

But to answer your question: why should I think less of a person for refusing an offer, sexual or otherwise? "No" is a perfectly valid answer, and deserves to be respected as such.
If I offered you a cup of tea, and you declined, would I think less of you? In fact, it's not even important what your reasons are. No means no. End of story.

 

[Tull]

"Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" Aleister Crowely.....this is what the natural man wants.