Misconceptions

[juvenissun]

Same for Christians.

I'm sure there are some Christians out there who think its biblical to own slaves but the pesky laws stop them from doing it, lol.

The Bible also says one should treat his slave well. Pagans screwed up the system. Therefore, the law.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

"Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" Aleister Crowely.....this is what the natural man wants.

Without getting into too much of a detour here: Thelema's Law does not say what you think it does. A person's True Will is not a random whim, or a fancy. It is the innermost purpose of being, akin to divine providence.
Crowley deserves a lot of criticism, but at least get it right before you tackle his philosophy.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

The problem with basing Morality on society and human interaction is that inevitably it breaks down.

"Inevitably"?
Within just a few thousand years of recorded history, mankind has (for the most part) experienced social progress. Ironically, looking at today's world map, I find most resistant "bubbles" of a more brutal heritage in places where religion is still a major force.

It requires an absolute to function. For otherwise it allows exceptions and utilatarian arguments to accrue over time and before we know it, we are shovelling Jews into furnaces or hacking Tutsis to death or causing massive man-made famines, all considered Right acts or morally acceptable to the participants.

Whenever atrocities happen, ideological or religious absolutes are involved. You won't get a person to treat another as subhuman without either convincing him that a Supreme Authority or Higher Ideal demands it, or else establish that those who do not view the world in the same fashion are evil.

 

[awitch]

You are very welcome.
Any law has that function. For example, you shalt not steal. Not every pagan will steal. But without that law, MANY will. If I were a pagan, I will do it. Why not?

Wow. You'd take someone else's property without their permission if there was no one to punish you?
How would you feel if someone stole your property? I would think that would be a bad thing. I wouldn't want people to steal my stuff. Knowing how bad I'd feel about it, I wouldn't want someone else to feel that way so I wouldn't take their stuff. Besides, I earn an income. I can legally obtain what I need. Stealing property harms other people and our general guideline is to try to live our lives in a way that minimizes harm.

If you found a wallet on the ground would you put it in your pocket and walk away? I've found wallets before and when I couldn't find the rightful owner I called the police to come and claim the wallet so they could try to return it.

Even with the laws against stealing, there are plenty of people of every religion (and without) that do it anyway. I kind of feel like you're just trying to vilify us.

 

[juvenissun]

Wow. You'd take someone else's property without their permission if there was no one to punish you?
How would you feel if someone stole your property?

If I were a pagan, why not? I have a bigger arm, that is the justice.

 

[gord44]

Man is inherently evil,i know your religion doesn't believe that and I respect that but mine tells me otherwise and I have my own life exeriences that verify it.

Fair enough good sir!

 

[Tull]

Without getting into too much of a detour here: Thelema's Law does not say what you think it does. A person's True Will is not a random whim, or a fancy. It is the innermost purpose of being, akin to divine providence.
Crowley deserves a lot of criticism, but at least get it right before you tackle his philosophy.

What is there to tackle,its as easy as falling off a log and as easy to witness as watching a child that is a law unto itself.

 

[gord44]

What is there to tackle,its as easy as falling off a log and as easy to witness as watching a child that is a law unto itself.

It's not an easy path to try and discover one's true self, if not maddingly impossible! The path of Christianity and many other religions is much easier, and there in lies their strength and appeal. Everything is much simpler.

 

[Tull]

It's not an easy path to try and discover one's true self, if not maddingly impossible! The path of Christianity and many other religions is much easier, and there in lies their strength and appeal. Everything is much simpler.

Complexity is not a virtue or a sign of truth,its just complex and is sometimes made so to confuse and misguide,my religion has a simple gospel that says I am a creation and fallen in nature,my creator has provided a path to redemption that I am sorely in need of.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

"Inevitably"?
Within just a few thousand years of recorded history, mankind has (for the most part) experienced social progress. Ironically, looking at today's world map, I find most resistant "bubbles" of a more brutal heritage in places where religion is still a major force.

I would disagree. By far the most terrible and bloodiest century in history is the 20th. We see genocides, Total War, the rise of Totalitarianism, a great upsurge in terrorism etc. Violent crime isn't even that much different than people think. 1980s New York had comparable murder rates to Mediaeval London (22 vs 20 per 100 000).
So 'progress' would have to be found in social issues like sexuality, income inequality etc. which are all debatable and in certain cases like acceptance of homosexuality, would be begging the question if considered 'progress'.

Whenever atrocities happen, ideological or religious absolutes are involved. You won't get a person to treat another as subhuman without either convincing him that a Supreme Authority or Higher Ideal demands it, or else establish that those who do not view the world in the same fashion are evil.

Please provide evidence for this statement.

The Nazis merely followed the scientific teaching of their day to its natural conclusion, the germ lying in the concept of 'fitness' as in surival of the fittest. While they were driven by a totalitarian idealogy, it was by no means an Absolute, as can be seen in many areas where they compromised such as allying with Japan or allowing extra-marital affairs. No higher or supreme ideal demanded that untermenschen existed, it was an obvious inference from progressive thinking of their day, the same school of thought that implemented sterilisation programmes for handicapped and mentally ill throughout the west in the 1930s.

Likewise with the Hutu, who were acting out of a sense of having been historically wronged by the Tutsi.

There are other atrocities like the British Concentration camps in the Boer War, Herero genocide in Namibia, the Bataan Death march or the treatment of coolies on Tea plantations which do not fit this characterisation at all. I assume you would say US atrocities in Korea or Vietnam for instance, were committed to try and establish freedom in support of our pervasive western idealogy?

Only with Communism trying to establish 'True Communism' do I perhaps agree, but even here, most atrocities were committed as short term goals beholden to the end point, but not in its name. The Great Leap Forward or Great Ukrainian Famine were both done in a mistaken belief that it would kickstart the economy for the betterment of all, for instance.

Regardless, the worst and most frequent atrocities in the 20th century were committed by fully Atheist or firmly Secular regimes, so the exact groups that had more fluid concepts of Morality. When we base our morality on individual choice, reasoned moral imperatives and interactions between people, it has historically gradually become horrific, so whether this ends up in an idealogy of some form is anyway just unneccesarily introducing an element into the equation. For Idealogy of course emerges, as can be demonstrated in your list of pansexual etc. which is already being defended to the teeth by those who disagree with someone that merely holds other views.
I for one can only see the likes of Raskolnikov or pseudo-Nietschean 'Will to Power' emerging from such 'morality', so I do not consider it moral in any sense of the term.

 

[gord44]

Complexity is not a virtue or a sign of truth,its just complex and is sometimes made so to confuse and misguide,my religion has a simple gospel that says I am a creation and fallen in nature,my creator has provided a path to redemption that I am sorely in need of.

Indeed friend! I choose a simple path as well!

 

[keith99]

Man is inherently evil,i know your religion doesn't believe that and I respect that but mine tells me otherwise and I have my own life exeriences that verify it.

I'd argue Christianity does not teach man is inherently evil. Instead it teaches he is fallen, there is a difference. A big difference. The most obvious application is the inherently evil is not redeemable, the fallen are.

 

[Tull]

I'd argue Christianity does not teach man is inherently evil. Instead it teaches he is fallen, there is a difference. A big difference. The most obvious application is the inherently evil is not redeemable, the fallen are.

When you consider the effects such as the violence and evil that has gone on and still goes on and the victims it hardly matters,the bible says the heart of man IS wicked and evil and the evidence is all around us and yes there is some good as well but only God knows what motivates that and his standard is both perfection of deed and motive.

 

[awitch]

The Bible also says one should treat his slave well. Pagans screwed up the system. Therefore, the law.

Um...excuse me?

 

[awitch]

If I were a pagan, why not? I have a bigger arm, that is the justice.

I have no idea what you're talking about

 

[juvenissun]

I have no idea what you're talking about

If so, ask, or don't reply.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

"Inevitably"?
Within just a few thousand years of recorded history, mankind has (for the most part) experienced social progress. Ironically, looking at today's world map, I find most resistant "bubbles" of a more brutal heritage in places where religion is still a major force.


Whenever atrocities happen, ideological or religious absolutes are involved. You won't get a person to treat another as subhuman without either convincing him that a Supreme Authority or Higher Ideal demands it, or else establish that those who do not view the world in the same fashion are evil.

So, when individuals from, say, a Maffia group or a Drug Cartel murder (and perpetrate upon others whatever other moral degeneracy they can think of), we should recognize that this comes by way of their adherence to either a "Supreme Authority" or a "Higher Idea"? Somehow, Jane, I don't think that Cinderalla slipper is going to fit in these cases ...

Sometimes people are just either evil or sick. They don't have to subscribe to a Higher Reason to do the dastardly things they do.

Just Sayin'

2PhiloVoid

 

[MehGuy]

The Bible also says one should treat his slave well. Pagans screwed up the system. Therefore, the law.

Oh, sorry my bad.

Pagans screwed up the system? Were they a little too "wacky, wacky" with the slaves.. ?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

You are very welcome.
Any law has that function. For example, you shalt not steal. Not every pagan will steal. But without that law, MANY will. If I were a pagan, I will do it. Why not?

People do not tend to refrain from stealing because there's a law against it.
There is a law against it because people, being a social species, react negatively to it, and thus put it down in a law.

Wolves or monkeys possess no law books, yet they penalize stealing with social repercussions for the offender. Solitary species follow different principles, yet if solidarity is a survival strategy (as it is for wolves, macaques, homo sapiens), anti-social behaviour WILL result in outrage if discovered.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

So, when individuals from, say, a Maffia group or a Drug Cartel murder (and perpetrate upon others whatever other moral degeneracy they can think of), we should recognize that this comes by way of their adherence to either a "Supreme Authority" or a "Higher Idea"? Somehow, Jane, I don't think that Cinderalla slipper is going to fit in these cases ...

Sometimes people are just either evil or sick. They don't have to subscribe to a Higher Reason to do the dastardly things they do.

Just Sayin'

2PhiloVoid

The Mafia or other criminal groups have a strong in-group/out-group ethos: outsiders are "not us", and thus fair game for unscrupulous behaviour, insiders who turn on them are vile traitors and thus even less deserving of humane treatment. It's a clear social dynamic guided by specific principles.(Many organized crime groups are devout Christians, by the way. Mexican drug cartels even venerate specific saints. )