Misconceptions

[sunlover1]

I've never once heard any representative of the Catholic church claim to be infalliable. Not even a Pope.

As to the quote you posted, I don't agree with it. However, as I pointed out, there are mistakes in EVERY dogma, every religion. I do not know who made the quote you are listing. Was it the current pope? An anti-pope? A cardinal?

With all due respect, the catholic church makes no mistakes. They have the full truth, we have only part.
That's what bothers TJ (I'm guessing).
Must be he thinks they're deceived about it.

Are you not doing, more or less, the same thing, when you declare that those who disagree with you are false apostles?

LOL, I cant help but to see the irony here.
CC says all Christians have to be under the pope.
TJ says that CC is unbiblical for saying such.
You say (below) 'TJ isnt following the Christ..
Pretty soon we can all have a finger pointing somewhere!
Yikes.

And again, you, yourself, are NOT following the teachings of Christ and the bible in HOW you are stating your efforts.

This one.

You have stated that you disagree with certain views. However, you've not done that in love.
You have not done it in a spirit of lifting anyone up to Christ.
Rather, you've done it like the Pharisees of the Bible, trying to bash someone else with it to prove you are right for feeling holier than thou.

Love doesnt always sound pretty or lovely.
I've found that out the hard way.
Here is how Jesus said it..

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? ...

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anisec and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?


I'm not saying that Jesus was speaking to catholics,
He was speaking to the religious leaders of His day.
I'm just saying that IF TJ thinks this is how the CC operates,
then he IS acting in love.
(In his own manly testosteronesque way) jk.
God IS love, and we did read His words above.

Guess God isnt politically correct lol.
Truth reigns with Him.

Bless your heart for pulling for what you perceive to
be the attacked party.

IT's hard to remember sometimes that there are real live
human beings on the other side of the screen.
And you kindly reminded us of that.


Blessings,
sunlover

 

[Rick Otto]

Yo, Tex!
Was Jesus not being "loving" when He said:
Mt 3:7 - But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mt 12:34 - O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mt 23:33 -Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Lu 3:7 - Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Maybe there's a Greek expert that can tell us "vipers" was realy a term of endearment?

WazzHe?
HEY!
Sonlover, stop tryin' to steal my thunder!

 

[Philothei]

This Greek scholar is out of commision....lol....

Forgive me

 

[Rick Otto]

I apologize, Philly.

 

[Catholic Christian]

I've never once heard any representative of the Catholic church claim to be infalliable. Not even a Pope.

Of course, you're never going to hear any bragging "I'm infallible". Thats ridiculous. If you want the straight scoop on Papal Infallibility, read this link:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

 

[Catholic Christian]

Yo, Tex!
Was Jesus not being "loving" when He said:
Mt 3:7 - But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mt 12:34 - O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mt 23:33 -Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Lu 3:7 - Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Maybe there's a Greek Geek that can tell us "vipers" was realy a term of endearment?

WazzHe?
HEY!
Sonlover, stop tryin' to steal my thunder!

Jesus can say that. You can't. Jesus' greatest commandemnt was to love thy neighbor as thyself. I think theres something about "do unto others...." in there too, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Catholic Christian]

Sure they did. They were just hiding in basements, caves and underground tunnels

That's a crock. There is no eveidence to support that.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Personal walk, in my heart I feel that if one man feels he must do something in order to please God, then let him do it! I'll do what I feel to please God. So we are both working to please God, no point in arguing about it. No need to be a stumbling block.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Love doesnt always sound pretty or lovely.
I've found that out the hard way.
Here is how Jesus said it..

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

I see people bringing up this point...I just want to say that it's different with Jesus...we're not Him. He knows the whole truth and knows people's hearts, and He has the right to judge. We do not. He is allowed to point out the flaws in others, because He is perfect and is God. We do not.

If anyone except Jesus said these words....they would breaking this command:

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

God bless

monica

 

[Kristos]

why has the word viper fallen out of common usage in the English language (or maybe it's just in the US). I've noticed that this is used often in other languages/places, mostly referring to women

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

why has the word viper fallen out of common usage in the English language (or maybe it's just in the US). I've noticed that this is used often in other languages/places, mostly referring to women

A woman scorned is a woman feared!!

Isaiah 3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

Reve 9:7 And the likenesses of the locusts like horses having been made ready into battle, and upon the heads of them, as Crowns/stephanos, like gold, and the faces of them as faces of men, 8 and they had hairs/tricaV as hairs/tricaV of women, and the teeth of them were as of lions,

 

[MoNiCa4316]

By the way I just wanted to point out something about the Pope and infallibility:

Infallibility is not the absence of sin. Nor is it a charism that belongs only to the pope. Indeed, infallibility also belongs to the body of bishops as a whole, when, in doctrinal unity with the pope, they solemnly teach a doctrine as true. We have this from Jesus himself, who promised the apostles and their successors the bishops, the magisterium of the Church: "He who hears you hears me" (Luke 10:16), and "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (Matt. 18:18).

Vatican II explained the doctrine of infallibility as follows: "Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they can nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly. This is so, even when they are dispersed around the world, provided that while maintaining the bond of unity among themselves and with Peter’s successor, and while teaching authentically on a matter of faith or morals, they concur in a single viewpoint as the one which must be held conclusively. This authority is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church. Their definitions must then be adhered to with the submission of faith" (Lumen Gentium 25).

 

[Catholic Christian]

No, you see terry, it is those who are exposed for their evils who toss out the accusation against the one's doing the exposing of being "pompous and arrogant", as in "How dare YOU speak against ME you pompous, arrogant..."

Rodrigo Borgia said the same thing of Savronlola, just before having him burned at the stake.

blah, blah blah

 

[Catholic Christian]

Judas was never meant to saved, and Jesus knew it when He made him an apostle.

Ah, ah, ah....
..your first goof, that I have seen. Man is created with free will, and God does not interfere with that free will. Judas CHOSE to do what he did. Now, God may have known ahead of time what Judas would choose, but it was still his choice

 

[TraderJack]

In light of the above history, we can see the dispute between Boniface and Philip had nothing to do with "Protestants" (they did not exist), it had nothing to do with pagans or any non-Catholic as such .

Yes, we know that is the most recent revised version spawned by the 20th century ecumenism agenda of the modernists within the Vatican.

The fact is, Unam Sanctum was not just directed at Philip the Fair, as the recent revised version tries to pass off. Actually, it asserted nothing new, but had been fraudulently asserted for several centuries prior to the 14th century.

It asserted the "two swords" doctrine that had developed in Rome in opposition to Romans 14 and Augustine's "City of God", and spurred on by the forgeries of "The Donation of Cosntantine" and "The Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals" that fraudulently made it appear that Rome and it's popes had a supreme political jurisdiction granted by Constantine, and first used to fraudulently convince Philip's predecessor, Pepin the Short to submit completely to the asserted supreme political position of the pope.

Within the assertion of the "two swords doctrine" is the dogmatic assertion: "Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John 'there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.'"

That was not anything new either, having been a staple assertion by Rome for centuries and is a universal assertion that applies to any who are not subject to and in communion with the popes of Rome. It is not limited to just that one historical period of the reign of Philip the Fair at all as the modernist revised version asserts.

Prior to Unam Sanctum, we find the following assertion by Leo IX, which itself was not new either, but was one in a long procession of assertions that the church was distinctly Roman;

Pope Saint Leo IX, A.D. 1049-1054): [regarding the eastern so-called "Orthodox" schismatics]: "If you live not in the body which is Christ, you are none of His. Whose, then, are you? You have been cut off and will wither, and like the branch pruned from the vine, you will burn in the fire - an end which may God's goodness keep far from you."

"So little does the Roman Church stand alone, as you think, that in the whole world any nation that in its pride dissents from her is in no way a church, but a council of heretics, a conventicle of schismatics, and a synagogue of Satan."

http://www.romancatholicism.org/jansenism/tradition-eens.htm

So, when Boniface VIII concludes Unam Sanctum with:

Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

He was only affirming what Lateran IV had already falsely asserted, and what Roman popes had been asserting for centuries, and did so "ex cathdra" just as Lateran IV had, both presuming to speak words from God that God never uttered, and which the Old Testament clearly teaches is the utterings of a false prophet.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus Sure they did. They were just hiding in basements, caves and underground tunnels

That's a crock. There is no eveidence to support that.

Where is the evidence they didn't?
I mean if you knew that you were gonna burn at the stake or be taken to a papal dungeon to be tortured to pledge allegiance to the Roman pope, wouldn't you hide?

LLOJ.....[often cooks in a Crock-Pot]

 

[Catholic Christian]

Where is the evidence they didn't?

In that case: Where is the evidence Mary DIDN'T assume into heaven?

Hah! Hoisted on your own petard

 

[fated]

Hello brothers and sisters..

I've been reading these threads for a while..and I've noticed that there is a lot of hatred for "traditional" forms of Christianity, especially Catholicism. I don't really understand this. Also, I've noticed that "traditional" Christians, such as Catholics and Orthodox, are often accused of believing in salvation by works..that we are justified by our works before God.

This is a serious misunderstanding. No one believes that we are justified by works. We ALL believe that we are saved by Christ, because of His death on the Cross, by grace. What "traditional" Christians say is that faith is not just intellectual agreement (even the demons believe..), but an active love and obedience to Christ. Faith includes and leads to good works...
Remember, this is perfectly Biblical. The Bible tells us that faith without works is dead, and in James 2 it says that we are not saved by faith alone!

Yes we are justified entirely by grace, but both faith and works are involved in our acceptance of it!! Just because "traditional" Christians don't believe in "faith alone"..doesn't mean that we don't believe in "grace alone", or that faith is unimportant, or that Christ's sacrifice is not enough.

Here is a website that has really helped me understand some things:

http://www.newman99.com/17.html

I ask everyone to please try to understand the doctrines before criticizing them.

God bless

love,
monica

I think this peculiarity stems from the fact that many people see that Jesus was... I'm not sure how to say... ?reluctant? to judge any individual before His Apostles, and therefore, we hold out hope that Jesus won't sentence good (yes little "g" good) people who did not know any better to Hell.

 

[TraderJack]

By the way I just wanted to point out something about the Pope and infallibility:

Yes Monica, we know what Rome asserted to be "infallibility".

In essence, it claims that God the Holy Spirit is speaking directly through either the pope or the Roman magesterium when proclaiming dogma, as "Divinely revealed truth", just as God spoke through the prophets.

Since Rome claims to be speaking the very words of God, as did the Prophets, then the Biblical test for it must be applied.

So, when tested by Scripture and the early church fathers, it is conclusively proven out a great many of those so called "Divinely revealed truths" are in fact, contrary to God.

 

[Philothei]

I see people bringing up this point...I just want to say that it's different with Jesus...we're not Him. He knows the whole truth and knows people's hearts, and He has the right to judge. We do not. He is allowed to point out the flaws in others, because He is perfect and is God. We do not.

If anyone except Jesus said these words....they would breaking this command:



God bless

monica

Furthermore, Christ always used discernment He understood human nature differently since He is fully God and fully and could distinguish which way of behaviour would have been more effective... Thus to some He was rebuking and to others pastoral. The Apostles had continued in his 'footsteps" that is his command as he said "behold i sent you as sheep in the midst of wolves be ye therefore wise as serpents and harmless as doves" Mtt. 10.16