Misconceptions

[TraderJack]

People have free will to choose to follow God

What does this mean Monica;

10 As it is written:


“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”[b]
13 “ Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;[c]

“ The poison of asps is under their lips”;[d]
14 “ Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]
15 “ Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”[f]
18 “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

And this:

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

And this;

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written:


“ Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”[c]

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[d] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?”[e] But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Buddhist do that too.

Hindus do that too.

Mormons do that too.

Some Muslims do that too.

Does that make them legitimate?

I never said that Pope John Paul II went to heaven because he forgave the man. We go to heaven because of Christ, and btw I'm sure he believed in Christ! What I meant though is that forgiving enemies is something that Christ told us to do, and when we do that, we're obeying Him.

He said, if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven.

By the way, only Christianity teaches that we must love our enemies.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I am afraid I have to ask you to follow your own advice.

It is so much easier for protestants to point at mistakes the Catholic Church made over time, especially the time of the anti-popes, or when a pedophile sneaks ends up in their pulpit, than it is to actually get to know Catholics, as individuals, and understand their faith.

They are not the only church that has made mistakes.
They are not the only church that has questionable dogma.

I've heard Baptists say "all this love stuff is crap". To which my reaction is, "Be sure and tell Christ that when you get to heaven. IF you get to heaven."

I've heard it taught from Baptist pulpits, the same pulpit and the same minister in fact, that the wine Christ created at the wedding feast and drank at the last supper was not fermented grapes, and was really just grape juice, yet, in the NEXT sermon, teach that Paul recommended wine to Timothy because fermented grapes have a healing affect on certain stomach problems. Hello?

There have been protestant pedophiles.
There have been people like Jim Jones in this world, and people who make the mistakes of Oral Roberts.

There are people who swear "dancing is a sin," and "not tithing will send you to hell," while at the same time preaching, "You are saved by grace, not of works."

There are people who teach a piano is a sin.
There are people who teach dancing is the same thing as adultery.

Do I believe that the Pope is the chosen representative of God on earth?
No more than any other Christian is.
Does that mean I think the Pope is evil?
Absolutely not. The Pope, as near as I can tell, tries harder to actually live by God's word than any human being I know.

Do I think babies should be baptized?
According to all the Catholic priests I know, that is basically a version of "child dedication," and is not meant to substitute for a personal relationship with Christ.

Do I think that baptism should be a believers confession? Yes, actually I do. So I disagree with Catholics on when it should take place, HOWEVER, I was also taught, as a Baptist, that baptism is an act of obedience, and NOT what actually saves you. Ergo - - I feel pretty sure that when told, "I'm sorry, Lord, I really thought I understood what you wanted," the Lord will be more interested in the attempt to do His will than He will in the tiny detail of the law.

I am sure of that because His word tells me that. "The law was made to serve men, not men the law." "You have made the traditions of men, above the word of God."

Etc.

Now, if you have a specific issue with any particular Catholic belief (and I do), discuss that ONE ISSUE in LOVE and Tolerance and BROTHERHOOD and with a Christian attitude.

I try to do that.

I don't agree with a whole lot of Protestants either.

But to say that a person is not a Christian, simply because they are Catholic is not just wrong, it is very unChristian.

Christ said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Now, I know, and you should know, believe in this use means, 'Surrender your life to Christ." Can you HONESTLY say that you think that Catholics do NOT love Christ, and do NOT try to serve Christ?

They do not worship the pope as if he is god.
They look to him to interpret scripture. They look to him for guideance.
Or at least MOST of them do.

Sure, there will be a few that go beyond that to idolatry toward him, but that is NOT what the doctrine of the Catholic church teaches.

Great post, TexasSky God bless you

monica

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I don't know what's in these people's hearts but I really disagree with much of their teaching.

So who is asking you to agree with 'em

 

[TraderJack]

It is so much easier for protestants to point at mistakes the Catholic Church made over time

Do you think that someone who claims to have the Holy Spirit speaking through them, being infallibly led by the Holy Spirit, is speaking God's words when saying:

Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Yes or no?

 

[NoDoubt]

I don't know what's in these people's hearts but I really disagree with much of their teaching.

 

[TraderJack]

I
Now, if you have a specific issue with any particular Catholic belief (and I do), discuss that ONE ISSUE in LOVE and Tolerance and BROTHERHOOD and with a Christian attitude.

You are entitled to your opinion and are entitled to even make driveby posts.

But let me ask you something. Does the following meet your standard of what is "Love, tolerance, brotherhood and a Christian attitude:

12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

Yes or no?

 

[TraderJack]

But to say that a person is not a Christian, simply because they are Catholic is not just wrong, it is very unChristian.

I do wish you would learn how to read in context. If you did you would not confuse the scrutiny, testing, and opposition to certain dogmas taught by Rome with "say that a person is not a Christian simply because they are Catholic", which is a terrrible confusion of opposition to the organization and individual Roman Catholics, and is not very tolerant, brotherly, loving or Christian to misrepresent people by making false charges.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

What does this mean Monica;

[/i]

And this:



And this;

I do not see how these verses mean that people are not free to choose or reject God. They are just saying that the Holy Spirit helps us understand God's truth...so?

No free will was rejected by the early church as a gnostic heresy. The Church Fathers believed in free will. I think they understood Scripture better than we do.

And anyway, I don't want to argue about this topic, my belief on it has no bearing on my salvation, and I'm leaving it up to God. However He saves people, is fine with me.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No free will was rejected by the early church as a gnostic heresy. The Church Fathers believed in free will. I think they understood Scripture better than we do.

Sure they did. That is why we have Orthodox, Roman Catholic and "other".

1 Corinthians 1:30 Out of him yet, ye are in Christ Jesus, who was become wisdom to us from God, righteousness besides, and hallowing, and loosing/deliverence/apo-lutrwsiV <629>:

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Sure they did. That is why we have Orthodox, Roman Catholic and "other".

1 Corinthians 1:30 Out of him yet, ye are in Christ Jesus, who was become wisdom to us from God, righteousness besides, and hallowing, and loosing/deliverence/apo-lutrwsiV <629>:

When the Church Fathers were around, there was only one church

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

When the Church Fathers were around, there was only one church

So what happened since then?

Ezekiel 37:26 And I cut to them a Covenant of Peace, age-abiding he shall become with them.
And I give them, and I increase them, and I give sanctuary/04720 miqdash of Me in midst of them for age-abiding.

Luke 19:41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments on Her,
42 saying, "That if thou-knew, and thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward Peace of thee, now yet it was hid/ekrubh <2928> (5648) from thy eyes".

 

[MoNiCa4316]

So what happened since then?

Ezekiel 37:26 And I cut to them a Covenant of Peace, age-abiding he shall become with them.
And I give them, and I increase them, and I give sanctuary/04720 miqdash of Me in midst of them for age-abiding.

Luke 19:41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments on Her,
42 saying, "That if thou-knew, and thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward Peace of thee, now yet it was hid/ekrubh <2928> (5648) from thy eyes".

Well, I guess some people left it and started their own church(es)...or as some people think, the church split...

I think there is still one Church which is the Body of Christ.

 

[Trento]

Do you think that someone who claims to have the Holy Spirit speaking through them, being infallibly led by the Holy Spirit, is speaking God's words when saying:

[/b]

Yes or no?

At the end of 1301, Boniface commanded the French bishops to attend a council to be held November 1302 in Rome to consider the badly needed reform of the French Church. Philip forbade them to attend and in April 1302 organized an assembly of his own in Paris, of nobles, burgesses, and clergy to denounce the Pope and accuse him, based on a crude forgery of AF titled Deum Time (which means "Fear God"), of being "feudal overlord" of France. The French clergy, while addressing Boniface as Pope, protested against Boniface's "unheard of assertions." The Pope denied he ever claimed to be feudal overlord of France but was prepared to depose Philip if necessary,
Philip still refused to permit his bishops to attend the Pope's council in Rome. When the council did finally meet in November 1302, fewer than half of the French bishops attended and no measures for reform were agreed upon. Immediately after this abortive council, Pope Boniface VIII issued the famous Bull Unam Sanctam (Nov 18, 1302).
In light of the above history, we can see the dispute between Boniface and Philip had nothing to do with "Protestants" (they did not exist), it had nothing to do with pagans or any non-Catholic as such .

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

In light of the above history, we can see the dispute between Boniface and Philip had nothing to do with "Protestants" (they did not exist), it had nothing to do with pagans or any non-Catholic as such .

Sure they did. They were just hiding in basements, caves and underground tunnels

 

[Rick Otto]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoNiCa4316
When the Church Fathers were around, there was only one church

So what happened since then? quote]
Nicolaitanes.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoNiCa4316
When the Church Fathers were around, there was only one church

So what happened since then? [quote/]
Nicolaitanes.

Reve 2:14 But I am having according of thee a few. That thou are having there ones holding the teaching of Balaam, who taught to the Balak to be casting a snare before the sons of Israel, to be eating idol-sacrifices and to prostitute,
15 thus are having also thee, ones-holding the teaching of the Nicolaitans, likewise.
16 Reform then! If yet no, I am coming to thee swiftly, and I shall be battling with them in the sword of the mouth of Me

 

[Rick Otto]

At the end of 1301, Boniface commanded the French bishops to attend a council to be held November 1302 in Rome to consider the badly needed reform of the French Church. Philip forbade them to attend and in April 1302 organized an assembly of his own in Paris, of nobles, burgesses, and clergy to denounce the Pope and accuse him, based on a crude forgery of AF titled Deum Time (which means "Fear God"), of being "feudal overlord" of France. The French clergy, while addressing Boniface as Pope, protested against Boniface's "unheard of assertions." The Pope denied he ever claimed to be feudal overlord of France but was prepared to depose Philip if necessary,
Philip still refused to permit his bishops to attend the Pope's council in Rome. When the council did finally meet in November 1302, fewer than half of the French bishops attended and no measures for reform were agreed upon. Immediately after this abortive council, Pope Boniface VIII issued the famous Bull Unam Sanctam (Nov 18, 1302).
In light of the above history, we can see the dispute between Boniface and Philip had nothing to do with "Protestants" (they did not exist), it had nothing to do with pagans or any non-Catholic as such .

Not in the modern sense of the popular usage of that word, same as with the word "worship" which y'all used to not be embarrassed about giving to Mary because of the dulia/latria nuancing of it that hasn't survived common sense vernacular.
However it is entirely true in any sense, that they were in protest of Rome's power lust.

 

[TexasSky]

Do you think that someone who claims to have the Holy Spirit speaking through them, being infallibly led by the Holy Spirit, is speaking God's words when saying:

[/b]

Yes or no?

I've never once heard any representative of the Catholic church claim to be infalliable. Not even a Pope.

As to the quote you posted, I don't agree with it. However, as I pointed out, there are mistakes in EVERY dogma, every religion. I do not know who made the quote you are listing. Was it the current pope? An anti-pope? A cardinal?

Are you not doing, more or less, the same thing, when you declare that those who disagree with you are false apostles?

And again, you, yourself, are NOT following the teachings of Christ and the bible in HOW you are stating your efforts.

You have stated that you disagree with certain views. However, you've not done that in love.
You have not done it in a spirit of lifting anyone up to Christ.
Rather, you've done it like the Pharisees of the Bible, trying to bash someone else with it to prove you are right for feeling holier than thou.

There is no loving, Christian call to Catholics along the lines of, "Christ is the only path to God, and you do not need an earthly man to forgive you because the bible teaches us that Christ forgives us."

Saying, "You're a false prophet and you're going to hell," is not loving, it is not productive. It helps absolutely NO ONE.

I, personally, think your entire view of what Catholics believe is VERY wrong. I think it is very tainted by what someone else has told you.

The Catholics I've talked to at length about Christ freely speak of Christ as the way, the truth and the life. They believe, despite what you seem to think, that Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father. That forgiveness comes through Christ. If they believe in "bowing to Rome," it is not "to a man," or to an "organization" it is their believe that the Popes and Cardinals and Bishops have studied the bible more thoroughly, tried harder, prayed harder, and made a greater effort to be closer to God though obedience, and therefore, are examples to be followed, and teachers in the way that the disciples were respected as teachers who had a closer relationship to God because of their efforts to know God.

It is hard for protestants to understand.
It was hard for ME to understand at first since I am not Catholic, and was never raised Catholic.

I don't understand your extreme need to "prove they are evil."

If you really cared about what God wanted, and you really thought they were "that wrong" why wouldn't you spend that energy and time showing love, and teaching, and trying to save them if you truly thought they were all unsaved?

What good does the bitterness serve?

 

[LogosRhema]

Personal walk, in my heart I feel that if one man feels he must do something in order to please God, then let him do it! I'll do what I feel to please God. So we are both working to please God, no point in arguing about it. No need to be a stumbling block.