Misconceptions

[MoNiCa4316]

Hello brothers and sisters..

I've been reading these threads for a while..and I've noticed that there is a lot of hatred for "traditional" forms of Christianity, especially Catholicism. I don't really understand this. Also, I've noticed that "traditional" Christians, such as Catholics and Orthodox, are often accused of believing in salvation by works..that we are justified by our works before God.

This is a serious misunderstanding. No one believes that we are justified by works. We ALL believe that we are saved by Christ, because of His death on the Cross, by grace. What "traditional" Christians say is that faith is not just intellectual agreement (even the demons believe..), but an active love and obedience to Christ. Faith includes and leads to good works...
Remember, this is perfectly Biblical. The Bible tells us that faith without works is dead, and in James 2 it says that we are not saved by faith alone!

Yes we are justified entirely by grace, but both faith and works are involved in our acceptance of it!! Just because "traditional" Christians don't believe in "faith alone"..doesn't mean that we don't believe in "grace alone", or that faith is unimportant, or that Christ's sacrifice is not enough.

Here is a website that has really helped me understand some things:

http://www.newman99.com/17.html

I ask everyone to please try to understand the doctrines before criticizing them.

God bless

love,
monica

 

[Rhamiel]

No, no, no, I trust people with an axe to grind agianst the Catholic Church more then I trust a bright young lady who asks polite questions and trys to find out what Catholics really believe.

 

[fuerein]

I personally like the way one of the morning prayers says it:

... O Saviour, save me by Thy grace, I pray Thee. For if thou shouldst save me for my works, this would not be grace or a gift, but rather a duty ... Let faith instead of works be imputed to me, O my God, for Thou wilt find no works which could justify me. But may my faith suffice instead of all works, may it answer for, amy it acquit me, may it make me a partaker of Thine eternal glory. ...

I think that makes it fairly obvious the view of Orthodox regarding by what we are saved.

 

[jckstraw72]

... O Saviour, save me by Thy grace, I pray Thee. For if thou shouldst save me for my works, this would not be grace or a gift, but rather a duty ... Let faith instead of works be imputed to me, O my God, for Thou wilt find no works which could justify me. But may my faith suffice instead of all works, may it answer for, amy it acquit me, may it make me a partaker of Thine eternal glory. ...

mmmm morning prayers from the Jordanville prayer book (and probably other ones too)

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

Yes, the main problem is that people naively believe their faith's propaganda about traditional Christianity. It is much easier for them to argue against the straw men that have been constructed than to actually learn what traditional Christianity teaches.

 

[E.C.]

To Lisa:

What gets me is how at times Orthodoxy is nicely lumped into Catholicism.

What also gets me is how many can not forgive Rome for the bloody days of medieval Europe and get on with their lives.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Thanks for the replies guys

But..where is the 'target audience'?

 

[E.C.]

Thanks for the replies guys

But..where is the 'target audience'?

Discussing if this is truly from you or the pope, no doubt?

 

[God Child]

All well, there's a lot of churches claiming to be the traditional church. I'm always trying to figure out how exactly all of our primary doctrines contradict each other

 

[fuerein]

To Lisa:

What gets me is how at times Orthodoxy is nicely lumped into Catholicism.

What also gets me is how many can not forgive Rome for the bloody days of medieval Europe and get on with their lives.

Especially since most non-protestant histories don't exactly paint the reformers as peaceful lambs either.

 

[E.C.]

Especially since most non-protestant histories don't exactly paint the reformers as peaceful lambs either.

And most Protestant histories don't paint the Roman Church as peaceful.

 

[mont974x4]

The problem is many of you assume that we are just going off based on propaganda passed out by Jack Chick or someone else.

I never really had any issue until I really started studying for myself, until I really dug into the Word and really started paying attention what the official teachings are, compared to the myriad of opinions posted on message boards and blogs.


Honestly, I drive local pastors and protestant leaders nuts as well.

In another thread EC made a comment about me bringing up the pope and it making me just look angry or something along those lines. Well, he may well be right. How can I not be angry when he says things like this....

"Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff." - Pope Benny, Unam Sanctum


I stand on the Word of God against false teachings, and this is one of many in catholicism. The Bible says we can know the truth and the Holy Spirit leads into the fullness of truth. The Bible tells us to study for ourselves. The Bible tells us to test the spirits. The Bible tells us to contend earnestly for the faith.


However, if you really think I have an uneducated and irrational axe to grind with the pope and the rcc, if you really think it is just stupid hate and not righteous anger at lies and false teachers and false teachings and honest concern for individuals....I will never again post in these discussions. I will simply obey God elsewhere and pray that you can forgive, that God will forgive me for giving up, and trust Him to lead you the truth as He promises to.

Good day/good night/whatever

Unsubscribing as I have said my peace.

Jay

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

What gets me is how at times Orthodoxy is nicely lumped into Catholicism.

Or how anyone liturgical is. I am a liturgical Calvinist and was accused of being Catholic here recently. (Wow, isn't it sad when we live in a world where people are accused of being Catholic like it is a bad thing or something?)

Unsubscribing as I have said my peace.

Wait, are you really unsubscribing because of this?

"Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff." - Pope Benny, Unam Sanctum

I hope you don't take this as me bashing you but it would be wrong for me not to point out that this is not a quote from our current pope, it is a quote from Pope Boniface VIII who was pope from 1294 to1303 so this idea is a little dated. Actually, to call him pope is a bit generous, he is now recognized as an Anti-Pope (one who claims to be Pope but is not).

More recently, at least if my understanding is correct, the RCC has acknowledged protestants as estranged brothers and sisters in Christ. They still think our doctrine is wrong but they certainly think we are Christians. As such I think that we should extend the same hand of friendship to them. Digging up past confrontations will only show how wrong both sides have been. It is time to move on.

 

[E.C.]

Or how anyone liturgical is. I am a liturgical Calvinist and was accused of being Catholic here recently. (Wow, isn't it sad when we live in a world where people are accused of being Catholic like it is a bad thing or something?)

Wait... "liturgical Calvinist"? Please don't take any offense, but is that possible?

It is sad. If anything people should be accused of not being catholic (note small c ) rather than being accused of being Catholic.

Reminds me of how the n-word was used to keep black kids from becoming the stereotypical slave delinquent.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

The problem is many of you assume that we are just going off based on propaganda passed out by Jack Chick or someone else.

I never really had any issue until I really started studying for myself, until I really dug into the Word and really started paying attention what the official teachings are, compared to the myriad of opinions posted on message boards and blogs.


Honestly, I drive local pastors and protestant leaders nuts as well.

In another thread EC made a comment about me bringing up the pope and it making me just look angry or something along those lines. Well, he may well be right. How can I not be angry when he says things like this....

"Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff." - Pope Benny, Unam Sanctum


I stand on the Word of God against false teachings, and this is one of many in catholicism. The Bible says we can know the truth and the Holy Spirit leads into the fullness of truth. The Bible tells us to study for ourselves. The Bible tells us to test the spirits. The Bible tells us to contend earnestly for the faith.


However, if you really think I have an uneducated and irrational axe to grind with the pope and the rcc, if you really think it is just stupid hate and not righteous anger at lies and false teachers and false teachings and honest concern for individuals....I will never again post in these discussions. I will simply obey God elsewhere and pray that you can forgive, that God will forgive me for giving up, and trust Him to lead you the truth as He promises to.

Good day/good night/whatever

Unsubscribing as I have said my peace.

Jay

Jay, please forgive me if I've ever implied that you just have some irrational bias towards the Catholic church. As I've said before, I believe you when you say that you have examined both your beliefs and those of the Catholic church, and the ideas found in Scripture. What I was trying to say in my OP is just that many people seem to think that Catholics believe in salvation by works..and I was trying to show that in fact, they do not believe this. I've just been talking to Catholics a lot recently and researching their doctrines, and not one Catholic has told me that they believe they can earn heaven. I just wanted everyone else to know that so that we all know what we're discussing.
God bless

monica

 

[E.C.]

In another thread EC made a comment about me bringing up the pope and it making me just look angry or something along those lines. Well, he may well be right. How can I not be angry when he says things like this....

One problem that I have with the posters of this board is this.

I could post and say "Wow, its a fine day. Birds are chirping, grass is green and no clouds are blocking the view of Mt. Rainer".

Chances are, some Protestant will come up and say "Oh yeah? According to the diary of Pope Vince XXXVIII, this day two hundred years ago was exactly as you described it. Because some pope said it, it is therefore immediately wrong."
That is the mentality that I see from many here and it does nothing but breed hate and cause arguments.

 

[Celticflower]

One thing that has astounded me in these forums is how insulated some people seem to be. Some write as if they have never in their entire life talked to anyone who did not go to their church. Guess growing up in a very small town isn't all that bad. Catholics, Methodists, Presbyterians and Episcopals all worked, played, talked, worshipped (on occasion), mourned and rejoiced together. (these were the 4 who had congregations in the town -- nearby was a Baptist church and a few non-denoms moved into the area in the late '70's -early 80's) We talked about the similarities and differences of our churches from an early age, but never accused each other of be less Christian or not a real Christian. Sure, some of us were jealous cause the Catholic kids got out of school early on Tuesdays for studies at the church, and some were upset that the Methodist kids had to go to choir practice after school on Wed. and couldn't play ball, but that was about as bad as it ever got.

Sometimes having a face to put with a set of beliefs really helps -- you can see how the person lives out their faith and how they put the teachings of their church into action. You can't get this by just picking stuff apart on paper.

 

[Thekla]

One thing that has astounded me in these forums is how insulated some people seem to be. Some write as if they have never in their entire life talked to anyone who did not go to their church. Guess growing up in a very small town isn't all that bad. Catholics, Methodists, Presbyterians and Episcopals all worked, played, talked, worshipped (on occasion), mourned and rejoiced together. (these were the 4 who had congregations in the town -- nearby was a Baptist church and a few non-denoms moved into the area in the late '70's -early 80's) We talked about the similarities and differences of our churches from an early age, but never accused each other of be less Christian or not a real Christian. Sure, some of us were jealous cause the Catholic kids got out of school early on Tuesdays for studies at the church, and some were upset that the Methodist kids had to go to choir practice after school on Wed. and couldn't play ball, but that was about as bad as it ever got.

Sometimes having a face to put with a set of beliefs really helps -- you can see how the person lives out their faith and how they put the teachings of their church into action. You can't get this by just picking stuff apart on paper.

what a lovely experience !

 

[sunlover1]

No one believes that we are justified by works.

That is a nice thought, and would be super
if it were true, but it's not.
Actually, some people do believe just that.
You obviously dont know MY friends
And I dont live in a catholic area, so I'm
not speaking of catholics... but protestants.
But ...
It's easy to do too. We're brought up to
"prove" ourselves right from the get go.
Even the galations, who had paul as pastor,
believed that lie.
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you,
that ye should not obey the truth,
before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth,
crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you,
Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law,
or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit,
are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

We ALL believe that we are saved by Christ, because of His death on the Cross, by grace.

As I said, some above believed it was by works.
By being GOOD enough.

What "traditional" Christians say is that faith is not just intellectual agreement (even the demons believe..), but an active love and obedience to Christ. Faith includes and leads to good works...
Remember, this is perfectly Biblical. The Bible tells us that faith without works is dead, and in James 2 it says that we are not saved by faith alone!

Right, the works proceed from the relationship.
If one has Christ IN them, they WILL naturally
produce fruit, but never the other way around.
And the works bring rewards as well.

But not salvation.
ONLY the blood of Jesus,,, or Christ died in vain.
If we can be good enough to impress God, then
we have no need of a saviour.
Our own righteousness doesnt impress God lol.

sunlover

 

[sunlover1]

We talked about the similarities and differences of our churches from an early age, but never accused each other of be less Christian or not a real Christian.

Wow, consider that a blessing.
I was teased on the playground,
called an idol worshipper and pagan.
And I had NO idea whatsoever WHAT
they meant...

I was one of the small handful of
catholics in that school system...

People need to raise their children better.