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Mis-quoting John3:16

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by StPaulofHurstbridge, Apr 24, 2002.

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  1. Nick_Loves_Abba

    Nick_Loves_Abba Bulls On Parade

    +45
    Christian
    I'm probably wrong, but I'm think he's saying, no matter how man times you dip yourself in water your never going to be clean enough for heaven.

    We're only clean enough, because we are washed with the blood of Jesus and God's by God's grace. We are clothed in God's grace.

    Sorry Andrew if I got wrong. :)
     
  2. Tristan

    Tristan Chilling out

    68
    +0
    Hi all,

    There're a few things I'd like to add.

    Faith is not a 'work' to me. When it says that it is not by works but by faith that we are saved, I believe that the 'works' that it refers to are those that are done in an attempt to 'earn' salvation. Faith is clearly not this. In fact, faith is saying that you know it is *nothing* to do with works, and everything to do with grace.

    And to the 'being born of the water' thing. I think it is quite obvious that it is speaking of being born from your mother when it says 'born of the water'(though it took me a couple of years to spot it!).

    I'll show you what I mean...lets follow the entire conversation...

    John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

    Okay, first it says you have to be "born again". What does this mean? Nicodemus wonders the same thing...

    John 3:4 "Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

    ...so Nicodemus wants to know - how do you get born a second time? I was born from my mum's womb..what do I have to do, go back inside, and be born again? Jesus replies...

    John 3:5 "Jesus answered, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.'"

    ...Jesus says that you have to be 'born of the water' (out of the womb) and the second birth, is to be 'born of the Spirit' (out of the Holy Spirit)...

    John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit"

    ..here Jesus carries on the analogy - flesh is born from flesh ('born of the water' means coming from flesh..not baptismal water), and spirit comes from the Spirit...

    John 3:7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'"

    ...so don't be surprised when I say you have to be 'born again', because this is what I mean.


    If you took out the part about 'born of the water'/'born of the spirit', and read the conversation, it's quite obvious that they're talking about natural birth vs spiritual birth. The 'born of the water'/'born of the spirit' is slap bang in the middle of their chat, so (if you look at the conversation as a whole), I really don't think that it's about baptism.

    The word used for water means....water. I don't think you can glean hidden understanding from it. I just looked at where it occurs elsewhere in the NT, and it is used with baptism, the sea, washing hands...it really does just mean water <grin>.

    Anyways, those are my 2cents...what do you reckon?

    God bless,

    Tris
     
  3. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    But Strong's Exhaustive Dictionary adds: "especially refers to amniotic fluid," as in "the expectant mother's water broke."

    Crosswalk's references are notoritiously abreviated.
     
  4. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    I see that Baptism doesn’t save us as we are saved through faith by grace.

    Or the blood of Christ.

    But shortly there is a relevance to baptism considering every single Christian is told to be marked by the waters of baptism.

    Jesus commanded it and it was the first thing peter said when they said,"what should we do” and peter said, repent and be baptised for the remition of sin and you will be filled with the Holy Ghost.

    So it is pretty obvious to me that this is some sort of mark.

    Just as god will pull out books at the judgment, and the book of life has our name in it. I believe the sons of god are marked as revelations say.

    The only mark that we are all marked with is the mark that Jesus commanded and peter instructed so how come we are doing our best to do away with its relevance in the yr 2000????

    Tristan
    , I have looked at what your saying before and I think the whole being born Idea was a parable or symbolic way Jesus always relayed things but I am shore he was talking about nicodemas rejecting John the Baptist and just like he told the rich man that he wouldn’t enter unless he sold everything is similar to him challenging a Pharisee with the one thing that he just can’t do. And that was to go and humble himself like a child and go to john and be baptised and he will then enter the kingdom but because Jesus was being symbolic, nicodemas didn’t understand him, he thought he was talking about child birth or something and Jesus wasn’t talking about any such thing.

    As he said to him, “You’re a ruler in Israel and you can’t even understand what I am trying to tell you”.

    As I said, if you would read the first 5 chapters of john again, you will see that Jesus and john are working hand in hand and john is spoken of before and after this conversation with Jesus and nic. the conversation with nic was also about John the baptised.

    This is what I see anyway, I have to strongly disagree that it is a baby’s birth that Jesus meant. As much as I look, it only becomes clearer.

    It was john that Jesus was testing this Pharisee with because john the Baptist was nicks stumbling block. He could not be baptised by john, He would not humble himself even at the cost of being able to enter into the kingdom of god.
     
  5. Christi

    Christi Well-Known Member

    +212
    Christian
    Married
    I believe He is using word pictures to say, "YOU have to die. I will live in you. YOUR desires, plans, dreams are nothing compared to what I want to do....let me use your body to do this." I believe that's what being "born again" is. I believe that baptism symbolizes our "dying to ourselves" and "rising again" with Him in us, living His life through us. I don't believe faith is a work. I believe it is a surrender. I believe works follow, because they become the new desire of our heart. The works don't save us, but they are a natural result of having Jesus in us. His love loves others using our bodies. We are THE BODY OF CHRIST. I believe God knows which of us are His, and I believe WE know inside if we belong to Him. I believe we should only worry about another's salvation to the extent that they know the gospel, we pray for them, and He is seen in us. I don't think we should be judging another's salvation by whether or not WE feel they have met the requirements, as we percieve them. I do believe certain things we are to do out of obedience, such as baptism, communion, etc......but I believe these outward signs are less important than the condition of our heart. Have we humbled ourselves to Him?
     
  6. Tristan

    Tristan Chilling out

    68
    +0
    Hi Bulwark,

    Don't get me wrong, I think baptism is a powerful thing, and that it is something that every Christian should try to do.

    I just don't think it is necessary for salvation :)

    I re-read the first few chapters of John, and I really don't think that the conversation has anything to do with John the baptist. He comes to Jesus talking of miracles (John3:2), which He performed in the previous chapter (Chapter 2 - where John the baptist wasn't even mentioned)

    I don't see why Jesus would mention being born of the water in the first sentence to mean baptism, and then talk of being born of the flesh in the second sentence.

    No, I think that Jesus is talking about 2 types of birth - natural and spiritual, otherwise He would have mentioned 3. Every which way I read the conversation (even taking into account previous chapters), the same comparisons are being made all the way through - flesh vs spirit, natural birth vs supernatural birth.

    Hope that helps clarify :)

    God bless,

    Tris
     
  7. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

    +412
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Actually we are saved by grace, through faith. The important thing to recognize, though, is that faith, in and of itself, is a gift from God. He is the one who gives us the ability to believe in Him and what He did. We do not generate this faith from ourselves. We had a fallen nature and even years after many Christians are reconciled to God they rely on their works. Even the apostles recognized that the only one that could increase their faith was God:

    Luke 17:5
    And the apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith."

    God bless.
     
  8. Tristan

    Tristan Chilling out

    68
    +0
    Reformationist,

    I agree - right on!

    God bless,

    Tris
     
  9. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

    +412
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Thanks brother.

    God bless.
     
  10. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    There is a kind of faith that is a gift from God---given to some, and not to others. (1Cor12:9)

    There is a measure of faith God gives to all. (Rom12:3)

    But---"FAITH-UNTO-SALVATION", the ability to receive Jesus, from one's own heart's conviction---that comes from hearing the word of God. (Rom10:17)

    If the word falls on fertile ground, IE accomplishes conviction, then the person turns to Christ. Of his own choice.

    If "faith-unto-salvation" was a unilateral gift from God, Paul would not have written Romans 10 so...

    :)
     
  11. filosofer

    filosofer Senior Veteran

    +287
    Lutheran
    Well, except this goes back to what I mentioned about the one preposition (EX in Greek) for both water and spirit, indicating one thing not two.

    The reference for Nicodemus would likely be Ezekiel 36:25-27.
     
  12. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    Bulwark,

    what I was trying to say is that Ephesians tells us what the "water" can mean -- the Word, when it talks about the washing of the Word. So we dont have to interpret "born of water" as natural birth (water bag). the same greek word is used in both cases.

    Salvation in the Bible has to do with hearing the Gospel and making a decision for Christ, so I think "water" it shld be interpreted as the Word.

    After all, we hear the gospel preached to us then we get saved. no one just decides to accept Jesus without having heard anything about him.

    That said, I can also understand why some wld leave it in the context and interpret it as natural birth. I can see their point in light of human cloning. Did you know that scientist have now invented an artificial womb? so maybe those who are cloned or born in an artificial womb cannot enter the kingdom. sounds funny but who knows?
     
  13. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Just wanna share something I find interesting---predistinationists use this verse to contend that "God has changed them OUTSIDE OF THEMSELVES". Yet in Ez11:18-21, "when they come there, they will remove all its detestable thins and abominations from it. And I shall ive them one heart, and shall put a new spirit within them. And I shall take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and do them. Then they will be My people and I shall be their God. BUT AS FOR THOSE WHOSE HEARTS GO AFTER DETESTABLE THINGS I shall bring down their conduct on their heads', says the Lord God".

    Hmmmm---some choose to keep His statutes, others choose to go after detestable things.

    Anyone see "free will" in this???

    ;)
     
  14. Tristan

    Tristan Chilling out

    68
    +0
    filosofer,

    Ezekiel talks nothing of being 'born'..it simply speaks of water and flesh. The whole Nic/Jesus conversation is about being born. Why would they have a whole conversation about being born, and natural birth not be relevant in it?

    I think you're all looking way too deep here.

    Moving on...

    Baptism is *not* a requirement for salvation, but is a v.good thing to do. There are plenty of passages that say that believing and receiving Christ is enough, there are also saying that if you receive Christ *and* get Baptised then you are saved.

    Lets use a little logic here:

    Scenario A - Baptism a requirement for salvation
    Scenario B - Baptism is not a requirement for salvation

    x = Believing in Christ for salvation
    y = baptism

    >Some scriptures say you are saved if you do just 'x'
    This directly contradicts Scenario A, but not Scenario B

    >Some scriptures you are saved if you have done both 'x' and 'y'.
    This contradicts neither Scenario A nor B because:
    If A is true then you need both 'x' and 'y'.
    If B is true then you just need 'x', but if you do 'y', you are still saved.

    So baptism is not a requirement for salvation. But just to reiterate - I do believe that baptism is something that all Christians should do - it's a v.powerful thing. I just don't think it's necessary for salvation, and I believe that scripture supports this.


    I hope that jumble of a post makes sense..I'm in a bit of a rush <g>

    God bless,

    Tris
     
  15. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    guys ,
    I wasn`t saying that water baptisim saves you , shish , I wish people would read what I say.

    there isn`t any reason to write any more on this because all I would be doing is explaining again that you missed what I was saying. read what I say , then it would be worth answering.

    andrew , for your sake.

    I understood were you were coming from but brother , go read what I said again and put your self in the historical setting when jesus spoke to nic and remember who nic was and if you still think I am wrong then read the first 5 chapters of john and see that I AM RIGHT.

    hows that for presumptiousness ;) :p

    this was a conversation between a pharesee that refused john and his baptisim as a religious leader and he had the nerve to ask jesus what he should do.

    I am not even talking about our salvation andrew I AM TALKING ABOUT NICODEMUS salvation and what jesus told him to do to be able to brake his tradition down so he could receave salvation

    just like the rich guy ,he believed jesus to but jesus told him to sell everything and follow him to be saved so remember the historical concept and don`t bring everything into todays timeperiod.

    now read my other post again and see that I AM RIGHT about this one thing and I KNOW IT> :clap: :clap:
     
  16. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

    +412
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Look at the part that you capatalized. It starts with the word "But." It starts that way because it is not referring to those mentioned before the qualifier of "but." Those whose hearts go after detestable things are the one's that have not been given a "heart of flesh," but rather maintain their "heart of stone." Those people have not been given a "new spirit."

    God bless.
     
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