Miracles

[visionary]

Are they events outside our understanding? Just because Yeshua walked on water, doesn't make it a miracle, just something we don't normally see; does obey the laws of nature and can be done by any of us.

When I see "miracles". I think of the limits of my understanding of how is it possible. It must have been the same for those who first say a plane fly for the first time. It was impossible in the minds of many before it was done. The few who envisioned its possibilities, had a lot to learn in aerodynamics before getting a plane off the ground. But back then this was ground breaking science. Is this not the same for everything else?

Take the miracle of healing. By faith, people open themselves up for change, and change happens. Today, science has now determined that the mind does matter. Sick minds do create sick bodies. I am not saying we have all the details of how this works. I am saying it can be scientifically explained but we have to first believe before it is even conceived of how.

 

[Hieronymus]

Miracles are super natural by definition.
But beware, supernatural does not mean it is always of God.

 

[Favourofone]

Miracles are super natural by definition.
But beware, supernatural does not mean it is always of God.

Miracles by definition seem to be positive events. Do you suggest there are other paranormal actors that can produce miracles ?

 

[gadar perets]

Are they events outside our understanding? Just because Yeshua walked on water, doesn't make it a miracle, just something we don't normally see; does obey the laws of nature and can be done by any of us.

When I see "miracles". I think of the limits of my understanding of how is it possible. It must have been the same for those who first say a plane fly for the first time. It was impossible in the minds of many before it was done. The few who envisioned its possibilities, had a lot to learn in aerodynamics before getting a plane off the ground. But back then this was ground breaking science. Is this not the same for everything else?

Take the miracle of healing. By faith, people open themselves up for change, and change happens. Today, science has now determined that the mind does matter. Sick minds do create sick bodies. I am not saying we have all the details of how this works. I am saying it can be scientifically explained but we have to first believe before it is even conceived of how.

Biblically speaking, they are events that were accomplished through divine intervention and impossible for man to accomplish without divine help.

 

[Kenny'sID]

It's like when we argue creation/big bang and the opposition brings up the magic God. To him, they are not magic/miracles, and just as natural as us taking out the trash is to us. It's just that he has such a higher knowledge than us. I cannot imagine what he does is beyond explanation, but it's far more than we can explain. Like the native of a completely isolated island seeing a TV for the first time...it's a miracle to him...it may even frighten him, just as walking on water/healing might freak us out.

I think we all have the power to walk on water, among other things, (it's pretty much biblical) but not only that, to move mountains...physically move mountains, and with only the faith that amounts to a very small mustard seed. it's just that virtually none of us can figure out how to have even that much faith....it's certainly way beyond me.

 

[Hieronymus]

Miracles by definition seem to be positive events.

Except when they are lying signs and wonders..

Do you suggest there are other paranormal actors that can produce miracles ?

Would you suggest there aren't?
Demonic apparitions is what it usually is.
"Demon magicians" have been doing stuff for quite some time.
How come so many Christian seem to be oblivious when it comes to paranormal stuff?
Must be the message from the pulpits...

 

[Hieronymus]

It's like when we argue creation/big bang and the opposition brings up the magic God. To him, they are not magic/miracles, and just as natural as us taking out the trash is to us. It's just that he has such a higher knowledge than us. I cannot imagine what he does is beyond explanation, but it's far more than we can explain. Like the native of a completely isolated island seeing a TV for the first time...it's a miracle to him...it may even frighten him, just as walking on water/healing might freak us out.

I think we all have the power to walk on water, among other things, (it's pretty much biblical) but not only that, to move mountains...physically move mountains, and with only the faith that amounts to a very small mustard seed. it's just that virtually none of us can figure out how to have even that much faith....it's certainly way beyond me.

Dynamo walked on water.

 

[Favourofone]

I think we all have the power to walk on water, among other things, (it's pretty much biblical) but not only that, to move mountains...physically move mountains, and with only the faith that amounts to a very small mustard seed. it's just that virtually none of us can figure out how to have even that much faith....it's certainly way beyond me.

How uncharitable. If you believe all that I would grant that it is already worth a few mustard seeds.

 

[Favourofone]

"Demon magicians" have been doing stuff for quite some time.

Don’t suppose you can link anything even remotely verifiable?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Would you suggest there aren't?
Demonic apparitions is what it usually is.
"Demon magicians" have been doing stuff for quite some time.
How come so many Christian seem to be oblivious when it comes to paranormal stuff?
Must be the message from the pulpits...

But are they really doing those things. I think even the beast will do the "lying signs and wonders" but doesn't the bible say they are a trick/not real?

Illusion.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Dynamo walked on water.

Who's Dynamo?

 

[Hieronymus]

Don’t suppose you can link anything even remotely verifiable?

Don't suppose you would consider it to be true anyway...
But here are some videos for you to dismiss:

 

[Hieronymus]

But are they really doing those things. I think even the beast will do the "lying signs and wonders" but doesn't the bible say they are a trick/not real?

Illusion.

No.
(edit) illusion mixed with paranormal probably.
It's sometimes hard to decide.

 

[gadar perets]

I think we all have the power to walk on water, among other things, (it's pretty much biblical) but not only that, to move mountains...physically move mountains, and with only the faith that amounts to a very small mustard seed. it's just that virtually none of us can figure out how to have even that much faith....it's certainly way beyond me.

The faith it takes to move mountains or walk on water is not faith in our own abilities, but faith that the Almighty will work through us to accomplish it.

 

[Hieronymus]

Who's Dynamo?

One of those "demon magicians" like David Blane, Chris Angel, Yif and others.
Even Copperfield apparently, or so it seems.
(I'm not sure about the walking on water though, could be fake.)

Problem is, at what point is it impossible for an illusionist?
It's all a bit secretive and mysterious.

 

[Favourofone]

Don't suppose you would consider it to be true anyway...
But here are some videos for you to dismiss:

I don’t doubt your belief on legitimacy of Spy Kitten but these seem like normal stage magicians tricks.

Also there was quite a lot of material. Is there any specific time stamp that for you truly defines actual demonic interference in these videos?

 

[GBTG]

FAITH! Is what it's all about! My opinion is thus; the universe and all matter contained there is is supernatural! Matter itself defies the laws of physics. As the first law of physics is matter can neither be created nor destroyed, it merely changes forms. Matter came from somewhere! God created everything, supernaturally. That said, He imparted the laws of our universe. He is perfect so therefore would not create anything he would have to violate including the laws of the universe. Therefore the miracles of God the Father are different, than those of God the Son Jesus Christ. Jesus, because he was HUMAN and was born and could die, was flesh and blood. He was therefore bound by all the rules that we are as humans. Jesus therefore did not violate any of the laws of our universe, we just can't understand scientifically how this is possible, and we don't have enough FAITH to do as he did. The best example of this is Peter whom also walked on water through faith! Granted he was not successful long, because of doubt! Jesus scolds him for this! Jesus was the perfect incarnation of FAITH on Earth, as it is written we all fall short. The apostles through the Holy spirit (derived from strength of faith), were able to perform many of the same miracles as Jesus.

A couple of examples of Jesus's and God's miracles:

Water into wine... Jesus started with water not an empty container, he did not create anything new he changed what was there. This is true for all His miracles. He did not create more fish and bread he multiplied what was present, he changed the state of Lazarus's body he did not give him a new one.

God on the other hand is the CREATOR, he makes life possible through his will alone. He created the angels, matter, gravity...

Three different forms of God for 3 very distinct purposes. God the Creator, God the Son our emissary, and God the holy spirit (power of faith). You should pray to God the father, through the Son with the power of the Holy spirit.

Warm regards, GBTG

 

[Kenny'sID]

No.

Not buying it.

The faith it takes to move mountains or walk on water is not faith in our own abilities, but faith that the Almighty will work through us to accomplish it.

Of course it's not our power moving the mountain, but we do have to have the ability to have the faith to begin with. If our faith moves it, in a sense the power, due to that faith, is granted to us..still, it all comes from God

It's like we have no power right now to even muster up the strength to walk, but God has given us the power by letting us have complete control of a body he provided. Nothing is possible without him. We actually have control of the power he provided, just as we may have control over miraculous power, while none of it is ours to begin with.

 

[Favourofone]

He did not create more fish and bread he multiplied what was present

Multiplying an object is exactly creating more objects.

 

[Kenny'sID]

One of those "demon magicians" like David Blane, Chris Angel, Yif and others.
Even Copperfield apparently, or so it seems.
(I'm not sure about the walking on water though, could be fake.)

Problem is, at what point is it impossible for an illusionist?
It's all a bit secretive and mysterious.

It does sound as if you have some doubt, and I think that's good. Granted, it appears pretty convincing, but in the end, I think it's all illusion.

As mentioned, the beast will do these things, and he has the advantage of combined knowledge of all these illusionists, so naturally it's going to look good, and the bible says it will fool most...easy to see how it can.

I'll have to study up to find where the bible says all the miracles he does are not real.