Miracles

[TheQuietRiot]

If a man is pulled from the rubble 3 days after a terrible earthquake it is often quickly proclaimed a miracle of God he survived.

Does that mean that the reverse is true, and all those who were not as fortunate are cursed by God?

Also, wouldn't the earthquake have ultimately been caused/allowed to happen by god in the first place?

 

[juvenissun]

If a man is pulled from the rubble 3 days after a terrible earthquake it is often quickly proclaimed a miracle of God he survived.

Does that mean that the reverse is true, and all those who were not as fortunate are cursed by God?

Also, wouldn't the earthquake have ultimately been caused/allowed to happen by god in the first place?

A miracle roughly means something which should not happen, happened.

I guess that would answer your questions.

 

[TheQuietRiot]

A miracle roughly means something which should not happen, happened.

I guess that would answer your questions.

Stating a rough definition of a miracle does not in anyway answer my questions.

 

[WonderBeat]

The only miracle is that we are having this conversation at all.

 

[AlexBP]

If a man is pulled from the rubble 3 days after a terrible earthquake it is often quickly proclaimed a miracle of God he survived.

Does that mean that the reverse is true, and all those who were not as fortunate are cursed by God?

No, it does not.

Also, wouldn't the earthquake have ultimately been caused/allowed to happen by god in the first place?

God created all things in existence; in that sense, there would be neither earthquakes nor anything else without God.

 

[LionofJudahDK]

God created all things in existence; in that sense, there would be neither earthquakes nor anything else without God.

More specifically: God created the Earth to work in a certain way.

 

[jayem]

Also, wouldn't the earthquake have ultimately been caused/allowed to happen by god in the first place?

Pat Robertson would say yes. Particularly if the quake devastated a place full of sinners, blasphemers, and other non-believers.

BTW: Not to nitpick on semantics, but I'd reserve the term "miracle" to designate something impossible, not merely improbable. Examples:

1) A skydiver's chute doesn't open but he lands in some thick shrubbery and survives. Highly improbable, but not impossible. Not a miracle.

2) The same chuteless skydiver slowly descends to the ground and lands gently on his feet without injury. The acceleration of a mass in the earth's gravitational field is suddenly altered. A miracle.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Pat Robertson would say yes. Particularly if the quake devastated a place full of sinners, blasphemers, and other non-believers.

BTW: Not to nitpick on semantics, but I'd reserve the term "miracle" to designate something impossible, not merely improbable. Examples:

1) A skydiver's chute doesn't open but he lands in some thick shrubbery and survives. Highly improbable, but not impossible. Not a miracle.

2) The same chuteless skydiver slowly descends to the ground and lands gently on his feet without injury. The acceleration of a mass in the earth's gravitational field is suddenly altered. A miracle.

But the latter isn't impossible, either. It's more improbable than the former, but not fundamentally impossible - a passing UFO saved him with a timely gravity beam. Improbable, but not impossible.

More generally, whatever the scenario, if X did actually occur, then X can't be impossible.

What if God intervenes to make something quite mundane happen? Isn't divine intervention the ultimate arbitrator of what's a miracle?

 

[AlexBP]

In a rare moment of concord, I agree with Wiccan_Child. The split between "impossible" and "improbable" is a dichotomy based on humanity's limited understanding at any given time and place. Unless we had God's total knowledge of all things, we could never be entirely certain that something was impossible.

 

[quatona]

BTW: Not to nitpick on semantics, but I'd reserve the term "miracle" to designate something impossible, not merely improbable.

Not to ntipick either, but something doesn´t add up here: If something happens it´s clearly not impossible.

 

[LionofJudahDK]

Not to ntipick either, but something doesn´t add up here: If something happens it´s clearly not impossible.

It might be impossible for that event to occur naturally. But it is not necessarily impossible for that same event to occur through supernatural intervention.
The Ressurection is the best example I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[quatona]

It might be impossible for that event to occur naturally.

That´s better.

 

[mathclub]

It might be impossible for that event to occur naturally. But it is not necessarily impossible for that same event to occur through supernatural intervention.
The Ressurection is the best example I can think of off the top of my head.

so it's the cause of the event that makes it a miracle? not its probability or possibility?

can you give me an example of a miracle that we can verify actually happened (unlike the resurrection), perhaps something from more recent times?

Christians tell me miracles happen all the time, and I never quite know what they are talking about. Be good if someone would clarify this

 

[LionofJudahDK]

so it's the cause of the event that makes it a miracle? not its probability or possibility?

Exactly. If it is probable, or even possible for an event to occur naturally, it is not a miracle if it does occur. Just very, very, very unlikely. For instance: I once found $1000 on the street; someone had dropped it. That was not a miracle, just extremely unlikely.

can you give me an example of a miracle that we can verify actually happened (unlike the resurrection), perhaps something from more recent times?

The Ressurection is the best-witnessed event in all of ancient history.

Christians tell me miracles happen all the time, and I never quite know what they are talking about. Be good if someone would clarify this

I don't know of anyone saying that miracles happen ALL THE TIME.

 

[mathclub]

Exactly. If it is probable, or even possible for an event to occur naturally, it is not a miracle if it does occur. Just very, very, very unlikely. For instance: I once found $1000 on the street; someone had dropped it. That was not a miracle, just extremely unlikely.



The Ressurection is the best-witnessed event in all of ancient history.



I don't know of anyone saying that miracles happen ALL THE TIME.

well I do, I hear people saying things like 'life is a miracle', 'every birth is a miracle' and things like the chilean miners getting saved are miracles. Some getting pulled from the rubble in an earthquake is a miracle.

I don't know what definition they are using, but it sure sounds different to yours.

Yeah, ancient times are hard to discuss because it is always unclear as to what happened when you are just relying on the evidence of supposed witnesses.

Do miracles happen today, in the modern world? If so, can you give examples from more modern times?

 

[quatona]

well I do, I hear people saying things like 'life is a miracle', 'every birth is a miracle' and things like the chilean miners getting saved are miracles. Some getting pulled from the rubble in an earthquake is a miracle.

I´d wager that many use it as a hyperbolic figure of speech.
Just like people say "It´s a disaster" when there´s something uncomfortable.

 

[jayem]

Do miracles happen today, in the modern world? If so, can you give examples from more modern times?

Don't you know about Jesus's miraculous appearances?

Like on a piece of toast:

Or in a frying pan:

Or on an iron: (This looks more like Mona Lisa to me. Doubly miraculous, I guess. )

 

[Willie T]

Pat Robertson would say yes. Particularly if the quake devastated a place full of sinners, blasphemers, and other non-believers.

BTW: Not to nitpick on semantics, but I'd reserve the term "miracle" to designate something impossible, not merely improbable. Examples:

1) A skydiver's chute doesn't open but he lands in some thick shrubbery and survives. Highly improbable, but not impossible. Not a miracle.

2) The same chuteless skydiver slowly descends to the ground and lands gently on his feet without injury. The acceleration of a mass in the earth's gravitational field is suddenly altered. A miracle.

Unless you, Jayem, happen to be the skydiver.

 

[LionofJudahDK]

Unless you, Jayem, happen to be the skydiver.

No, he might refer to it as "a miracle", but after having recovered from the shock, he'd be able to say that it was not a miracle, but a very, very, very lucky break.
It would have been a miracle, if the bushes and haystacks magically appeared at the spot where he landed, without having been there before.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Exactly. If it is probable, or even possible for an event to occur naturally, it is not a miracle if it does occur. Just very, very, very unlikely. For instance: I once found $1000 on the street; someone had dropped it. That was not a miracle, just extremely unlikely.

Then a miracle, by definition, cannot happen. If a miracle is an impossible thing that happens, then we can rest assured that it hasn't ever, and won't ever, happen.

The Ressurection is the best-witnessed event in all of ancient history.

Maybe, but we can't verify that. All sorts of supernatural phenomena have been purported to occur over the millennia of recorded history, and many of them would have had to have had many eye-witnesses. But that doesn't mean we can trust it.

If you want to cite the resurrection's many eye-witnesses as evidence, you need to actually cite those witnesses. One account that says "I saw it, and so did many other people, honest!" doesn't quite cut it.

I don't know of anyone saying that miracles happen ALL THE TIME.

You should get more acquainted to your own community. (Even the Jews)