Miracle Physics

[Non sequitur]

Starting with the premise that mind is reducible to the brain?

Why would one think otherwise? It's all we have to go on. Anything derived or concluded from outside that, came form the brain.

No brain, no mind. (Give some examples of minds with no brains and not ones that cannot be even tested for.)

So what if I told you that a rock on an island exists and the rock as you see it is all that exists about the rock? Any motion or energy in the rock is reducible to what your hands can touch and what your eyes can see. How would you react to such a scenario?

That I'm looking at a rock. Can you draw out the conclusion you are trying to lead to?

 

[TeddyReceptus]

Starting with the premise that mind is reducible to the brain?

A. Why does that matter?
B. Without a brain there is no mind. I am unaware of any "minds" free of brains.

So what if I told you that a rock on an island exists and the rock as you see it is all that exists about the rock? Any motion or energy in the rock is reducible to what your hands can touch and what your eyes can see. How would you react to such a scenario?

Why does that matter? (It has been explicitly dealt with in regards to the Indian fellow and the freezing of water cited earlier).

 

[TLK Valentine]

Why should Bible-believing Christians subordinate miracle physics to normal physics in any case where normal physics would contradict the Bible?

because normal physics work no matter who benefits -- "miracle physics" are only ever invoked for the benefit of "Bible-Believing Christians."

Next question?

 

[AV1611VET]

because normal physics work no matter who benefits --

No, it doesn't.

Apply normal physics to the parting of the Red Sea, the Resurrection, Jesus walking on water, healing the sick, feeding the 5000, etc.

Normal physics clearly doesn't work; and as I asked:

Why should Bible-believing Christians subordinate miracle physics to normal physics in any case where normal physics would contradict the Bible?

 

[Greg1234]

Why would one think otherwise?

I'll take that as a yes.

That I'm looking at a rock.

Ok...

A. Why does that matter?
B. Without a brain there is no mind. I am unaware of any "minds" free of brains.

I'll take that as a yes.

Why does that matter? (It has been explicitly dealt with in regards to the Indian fellow and the freezing of water cited earlier).

But...you didn't answer. For future reference it's post #20.

 

[Split Rock]

No, it doesn't.

Apply normal physics to the parting of the Red Sea, the Resurrection, Jesus walking on water, healing the sick, feeding the 5000, etc.

Normal physics clearly doesn't work; and as I asked:

Why should Bible-believing Christians subordinate miracle physics to normal physics in any case where normal physics would contradict the Bible?

Because they might want to live in the real world?

Honestly though, I don't have much of a problem with miracles. I think you have noticed this yourself... and questioned why. Events that occur very rarely have little impact on our ability to understand the world around us. If Jesus did resurrect himself once as a miracle, that would have little effect on the question of what happens to the dead today.

The problem as I see it, is when "miracle physics" is applied to the broader picture, like the age of the earth, common descent, the history of the universe, etc. The so-called "vapor canopy" and Split/merge dadology are good examples of this. Then you have what I will now refer to as "Fantasy Physics." Its when Christians move into Fantasy Physics that I have a problem.

 

[AV1611VET]

Because they might want to live in the real world?

Honestly though, I don't have much of a problem with miracles. I think you have noticed this yourself... and questioned why. Events that occur very rarely have little impact on our ability to understand the world around us. If Jesus did resurrect himself once as a miracle, that would have little effect on the question of what happens to the dead today.

The problem as I see it, is when "miracle physics" is applied to the broader picture, like the age of the earth, common descent, the history of the universe, etc. The so-called "vapor canopy" and Split/merge dadology are good examples of this. Then you have what I will now refer to as "Fantasy Physics." Its when Christians move into Fantasy Physics that I have a problem.

God's miracles are not confined to the microcosm ... there are macro-miracles as well.

If He can feed 5000 with a 2-piece fish dinner, He can flood the entire earth with water.

 

[Split Rock]

God's miracles are not confined to the microcosm ... there are macro-miracles as well.

If He can feed 5000 with a 2-piece fish dinner, He can flood the entire earth with water.

But why would he setup a universe with specific laws and then violate them on a massive scale like that? If he were capable of human errors, then it makes sense that he would need to tinker and adjust from time to time and make more drastic changes on more rare occassions... but that is NOT the god you claim created the universe... or is it? Is the god you are referring to mearly a reflection of yourself? Is that why he is so human in his errors?

 

[AV1611VET]

But why would he setup a universe with specific laws and then violate them on a massive scale like that?

I don't really understand this question, but for what it's worth, Who better to violate them, than the One Who set them up?

Can you imagine what this earth would be like if God would have performed zero miracles?

Let me give you a hint:

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Satan would have a field-day here, if he was allowed to go unchecked.

 

[Split Rock]

I don't really understand this question, but for what it's worth, Who better to violate them, than the One Who set them up?

Can you imagine what this earth would be like if God would have performed zero miracles?

Let me give you a hint:

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Satan would have a field-day here, if he was allowed to go unchecked.

Can you imagine what this earth would be like if:
1. God had set up the universe right in the first place?
2. God did not let a talking snake-serpent-beast into the Garden of Eden to tempt Eve?
3. God had thrown Lucifer over onto Pluto, instead of down here with us?

 

[Split Rock]

I don't really understand this question, but for what it's worth, Who better to violate them, than the One Who set them up?

Do you really not understand what it means to know everything, to be perfect, to be all-powerful, and to see into the future as easliy as the past and present? You would be able to create a perfect unvierse where everything would play out into eternity just the way you want it to. All by itself, without you tinkering with it.

 

[AV1611VET]

Do you really not understand what it means to know everything, to be perfect, to be all-powerful, and to see into the future as easliy as the past and present? You would be able to create a perfect unvierse where everything would play out into eternity just the way you want it to. All by itself, without you tinkering with it.

The universe isn't some f-p-s movie, else all we would be is actors.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

The universe isn't some f-p-s movie, else all we would be is actors.

Who was it that said "all the world's a stage"?

 

[TLK Valentine]

No, it doesn't.

Apply normal physics to the parting of the Red Sea, the Resurrection, Jesus walking on water, healing the sick, feeding the 5000, etc.

Those events didn't happen. You'd like to think they did, so you need "miracle physics" in order to prove yourself right -- and that's the only purpose it serves.

Allow me to reiterate:

Neither you nor a "bible believing Christian" would ever invoke "miracle physics" for a situation in which you didn't either directly or indirectly benefit from. It's a pathetic hideaway from realities you find unpleasant.

Why should Bible-believing Christians subordinate miracle physics to normal physics in any case where normal physics would contradict the Bible?

Because if they don't, they'd risk losing face? And some egos are far too fragile for that.

Sad really -- don't like reality? Redefine it!

 

[[serious]]

Here is a brief description of cartoon physics, from Wikipedia:
Using the above definition as a template, I propose the following definition for miracle physics:

I think it works. Those making up new cartoons may make use of well established tropes of cartoon physics just as those making up new mythologies may make use of well established tropes of mythology or miracle physics.

I've got to be honest though, putting miracles down as analogous to cartoons hardly makes them more believable.

Why should Bible-believing Christians subordinate miracle physics to normal physics in any case where normal physics would contradict the Bible?

For the same reason people who watch cartoons shouldn't jump off cliffs and assume they will just turn into an accordion. It's well established that in the natural world, natural laws are followed. Within fictional cartoons, cartoon laws can be followed. If you are writing a new mythology, miracle rules can be followed.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Because they might want to live in the real world?

Ah, but in the real world they're small and insignificant. In their own world, they are (figuratively and some believe literally) the center of a universe which was created just for them!

Honestly though, I don't have much of a problem with miracles. I think you have noticed this yourself... and questioned why. Events that occur very rarely have little impact on our ability to understand the world around us. If Jesus did resurrect himself once as a miracle, that would have little effect on the question of what happens to the dead today.

I do have a problem with miracles -- as AV is in the midst of kindly demonstrating, they distract people away from unpleasant truths.

Now, this, in and of itself, wouldn't be all that special, but the fact that the delusional world miracles create is always a self-serving one only serves to make the people who believe in it even more obnoxious and self important. Why? Because "miracles" only ever happen in their favor -- God breaks His rules just for them.

The problem as I see it, is when "miracle physics" is applied to the broader picture, like the age of the earth, common descent, the history of the universe, etc. The so-called "vapor canopy" and Split/merge dadology are good examples of this. Then you have what I will now refer to as "Fantasy Physics." Its when Christians move into Fantasy Physics that I have a problem.

Well, that's the only reason to believe in "miracle physics" -- to extend it to fantasy physics. Because once one has God eating out of their hands, who gives a fig about physics? Sic your pet God on anything whcih threatens to inconvenience you!

When one lives in a world which God can manipulate to His wishes, and expects Him to do so regularly, then one's ultimate religious goal becomes to manipulate God for one's own benefit. The object of such religious "worship" becomes to cajole God into abandoning His great plan in favor of a series of improvised "miracles" which grant you what you want -- or worse, quelling His wrath so that He never sets His power against you -- not that a truly "religious" person would ever consider that possibility.

Consider: On April 21, 2011, Texas Governor Rick Perry issues a public proclamation praying for rain at the beginning of a major drought season in Texas.

Office of the Governor Rick Perry - [Proclamation] Gov. Perry Issues Proclamation for Days of Prayer for Rain in Texas

No rain came. In fact, 2011 became the driest year in Texas history -- costing the state over $7.62 billion in crop and livestock losses, and another $5 billion in wildfire damage.

So... what went wrong? I think that "miracle physics" would show that God either hates Texas, hates Rick Perry, hates people complaining about the weather, or maybe all of the above. Who's with me?

Nobody, of course -- "miracle physics" would've only been invoked if it had rained, right?

 

[AV1611VET]

Well, that's the only reason to believe in "miracle physics" -- to extend it to fantasy physics. Because once one has God eating out of their hands, who gives a fig about physics? Sic your pet God on anything whcih threatens to inconvenience you!

Ya ... this is what we get when we take this [ 24 ] advice, isn't it?

And if we don't ... well ... we get your rant & ridicule, don't we?

Yup ... we're either 'brainwashed' or 'backwater' ... and that suits me just fine.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Ya ... this is what we get when we take this [ 24 ] advice, isn't it?

And if we don't ... well ... we get your rant & ridicule, don't we?

Yup ... we're either 'brainwashed' or 'backwater' ... and that suits me just fine.

You apply cartoon physics to the Bible and act shocked, shocked! when you get ridiculed for it? Did you honestly expect a different outcome?

Accept some responsibility for your mistakes for once, AV.

 

[selfinflikted]

this OP tickles me. Straight from "Cartoon Phyics" to "Miracle Physics." AV, sometimes there are doors that should remain closed, fren.

 

[Split Rock]

The universe isn't some f-p-s movie, else all we would be is actors.

This still does not explain who an all-knowing, all-powerful god would need to tinker with his creation. He would not need to invoke miracles, if he had the capabilities you claim and made his creation perfect as you claim.