Miracle of Fatima

[Rhamiel]

sorry i thought this was a thread about the message given at fatima
universal salvation was not one of the messages, if you want to set up a strawman go ahead, but it just seems silly

 

[Rhamiel]

I now understand why Protestants have to attack the vision at fatima so much
they can NOT believe it and still stay Protestant
this is a vision that encourages Catholic Church, so they HAVE to attack it

 

[Albion]

I now understand why Protestants have to attack the vision at fatima so much
they can NOT believe it and still stay Protestant

Unless you're just trying to be provocative, that doesn't make any sense.

 

[razeontherock]

I think the big difference between those having visions that you documented and what happened at Fatima and a few other places is the evidence of miracles (that could be scientifically substantiated) that occurred with these visions and still occur in many of these places.

That reads like the miracle of the sun is still ongoing. What do you mean?

 

[Rhamiel]

Unless you're just trying to be provocative, that doesn't make any sense.

the children were asked to pray the rosary, something that is anathema to many protestants
devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary and asking people to go to confession is also part of the message from Our Lady at Fatima
so, either God sent Mary to tell the children these things or the visions were caused by demons or the children liars or lunatics
if it is from God, then God wants people to follow the teachings of the Catholic Church, so Evangelical Protestants have either follow the teachings of the Catholic Church or they have to convince themselves that the visions were demonic or false

 

[Albion]

the children were asked to pray the rosary, something that is anathema to many protestants
devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary and asking people to go to confession is also part of the message from Our Lady at Fatima
so, either God sent Mary to tell the children these things or the visions were caused by demons or the children liars or lunatics

Ah. I see what you mean. It's not that Protestants would doubt Fatima for doubt's sake, but that, overall, the alleged messages are so Catholic-specific that they don't relate to Protestants.

Evangelical Protestants have either follow the teachings of the Catholic Church or they have to convince themselves that the visions were demonic or false

I'm not sure that that follows logically, but I'm OK with it in general.

It's not the case that every alleged apparition in history that supposedly talks the Catholic talk is real. Most, in fact, have been rejected by the RCC and yet there are still devotees who are convinced that the were genuine. The reason YOU accept Fatima is that your church has accepted it, not just that it was drenched in Catholic characteristics. And as for the demonic explanation, I think that that was advanced by one or two people here who were trying to get the pro-Fatima folks to think through all the reasonable and possible explanations. I'm not at all sure that even they had concluded that this is an example of that.

 

[Rhamiel]

also i do not mean to lump all protestants together, for many they just do not like the idea of visions of any kind and are naturally more skeptical, and that is a healthy POV for things of spiritual matters

 

[razeontherock]

the children were asked to pray the rosary, something that is anathema to many protestants

I actually have no idea what the rosary is!

devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

This may well have very specific meaning but again I'm totally unaware. A simple reading suggests it is essentially the same thing as "Holiness?"

and asking people to go to confession is also part of the message from Our Lady at Fatima

Having actually read and understood what Catholic confession is taught to be all about, I can't voice an objection to it. My concern then becomes that no RC IRL could ever express anything close to that, and I only found it here on CF ... (this suggests maybe it's not practiced or thought of they way it's intended)

so, either God sent Mary to tell the children these things or the visions were caused by demons or the children liars or lunatics
if it is from God, then God wants people to follow the teachings of the Catholic Church, so Evangelical Protestants have either follow the teachings of the Catholic Church or they have to convince themselves that the visions were demonic or false

Hopefully you can see it's not really that cut and dried, and this is too extreme to be true?

 

[Myshkin99]

Evidently it was for a great number of people who either had their faith boosted by the event or converted to Christianity because of the events they saw or experienced. But I guess that is the work of the devil.

Actually, I do think that, if it was really a supernatural event, and not a series of illusions of misconceptions, than it was probably not a manifestation of God, but instead Satan. He is called The Deceiver, after all.

 

[razeontherock]

Look, the person, Virgin or whoever or whatever it was, is believed to have talked to children! Do we honestly think that she came to deliver a message to theologians but decided to have children deliver it for her? If something is supposed to be a revelation, it has to be revealing.

Hmmm, I'm not so sure this line of thought applies here. We are talking about the Mary who had a child who said "suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God." Are we not?

So even if Fatima were a "theological revelation," making it known to children might indeed be how God would go about it! Yet it doesn't seem to "reveal new theology." (Does it?) In fact, "new revelation" should only serve the function of bringing us back to "the Faith once delivered to the Saints," right?

Now I'm certainly no expert on Fatima or anything else RC, but from this side of the screen it seems like someone following the gist of what was "revealed" at Fatima, might just fit into that category. Can we really make valid objections about that? [The only one I see is connected to the painting, where it says something about giving life. We beat that to death sometime back]

 

[Rhamiel]

me in green

I actually have no idea what the rosary is!

the Rosary is a collection of prayers and meditations on the life of Jesus and Mary and the Early Church

This may well have very specific meaning but again I'm totally unaware. A simple reading suggests it is essentially the same thing as "Holiness?"



Having actually read and understood what Catholic confession is taught to be all about, I can't voice an objection to it. My concern then becomes that no RC IRL could ever express anything close to that, and I only found it here on CF ... (this suggests maybe it's not practiced or thought of they way it's intended)

Not 100% sure what you mean by this, you mean that not very many Catholics take confession seriously and over simlify it or make it into something that it is not, then yeah i agree

Hopefully you can see it's not really that cut and dried, and this is too extreme to be true?
I am not sure how much I am exagerating, confession, purgatory, prayer to saints, the rosary, prayers for reperation, all these things are very Catholic, if these visions were true it would seem like the Catholic Church must be true?

 

[Rhamiel]

Hmmm, I'm not so sure this line of thought applies here. We are talking about the Mary who had a child who said "suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God." Are we not?

So even if Fatima were a "theological revelation," making it known to children might indeed be how God would go about it! Yet it doesn't seem to "reveal new theology." (Does it?) In fact, "new revelation" should only serve the function of bringing us back to "the Faith once delivered to the Saints," right?

Now I'm certainly no expert on Fatima or anything else RC, but from this side of the screen it seems like someone following the gist of what was "revealed" at Fatima, might just fit into that category. Can we really make valid objections about that? [The only one I see is connected to the painting, where it says something about giving life. We beat that to death sometime back]

Jesus said the line about "suffer the little children" not Mary, atleast I am mostly sure
God uses the weak and humble of this world to shame the strong and mighty

and what you said about new revelation is 100% correct! the Gospel is the Good News, the Bible is the divine revelation for the general population, so a person might get a message from God about what might happen to them, but for the history of salvation, we have that all in the Bible, not sure if I am making sense, like we might get more individual information from God but there should be no new teachings
this is why the Catholic Church says that most visions are not true, if the vision has any new teachings then we know it is not from God
at Fatima the Vision (who i believe to be the Blessed Virgin Mary) did not preach anything new, it was a call back to holiness, asking for more prayer and devotion, not new teachings

 

[Albion]

Hmmm, I'm not so sure this line of thought applies here. We are talking about the Mary who had a child who said "suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God." Are we not?

Uh...that was Jesus, not Mary.

So even if Fatima were a "theological revelation," making it known to children might indeed be how God would go about it!

Theology? Not likely. Pray the rosary, I suppose, but not what we've been discussing.

 

[razeontherock]

Uh...that was Jesus, not Mary.

How is it that 2 people read right over what I said? (Plain as day, folks: "We are talking about the Mary who had a child who said")

Theology? Not likely. Pray the rosary, I suppose, but not what we've been discussing.

So what "theology" do you assert Fatima advanced?

 

[Albion]

How is it that 2 people read right over what I said? So what "theology" do you assert Fatima advanced?

Been there; done that. How is that you read right over what I said?

 

[Erose]

That reads like the miracle of the sun is still ongoing. What do you mean?

No not the miracle of the sun. Miracles. Miracles still occur at these places such as Lourdes.

 

[razeontherock]

I have seen no discussion of any theology advanced at Fatima. Therefore, I conclude it didn't advance any theology. Is there a consensus of opinion on this?

 

[Albion]

No not the miracle of the sun. Miracles. Miracles still occur at these places such as Lourdes.

That's interesting. Could you name or describe some of them for us?

 

[Erose]

Actually, I do think that, if it was really a supernatural event, and not a series of illusions of misconceptions, than it was probably not a manifestation of God, but instead Satan. He is called The Deceiver, after all.

That is what the Pharisees said as well.

 

[razeontherock]

Miracles. Miracles still occur

Anything to put the final nail in the coffin of cessatiionalism

at these places such as Lourdes.

Hopefully you're not limiting miracles to ... oh wait nevermind. I should quit while I'm ahead!