Dylan Michael
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She understands the gospel. Just not your interpretation of it.That doesn't answer the question. In fact, it casts doubt on the claim that it was Mary because it's safe to assume Mary would have a better understanding of the Gospel than that.
Do some research on how the Catholic church tests all things that some claim as miraculous and maybe this would alleviate some of your concerns.And how do they know it's Mary?
How is this consistent with the Bible's command to test all things in light of scripture? Where does the Bible ever tell us to leave discernment to someone else?
Which Biblical quote are you referring to? Who fixed the mess up about circumcision where there was much confusion going on? Individuals relying upon themselves to interpret correctly or was this done at the first council of Jerusalem?And how do they know it's Mary?
How is this consistent with the Bible's command to test all things in light of scripture? Where does the Bible ever tell us to leave discernment to someone else?
Like anything else you have to follow the words of Jesus when he explained how you know and that is by its fruits.That doesn't answer the question. In fact, it casts doubt on the claim that it was Mary because it's safe to assume Mary would have a better understanding of the Gospel than that.
Why not? Doesn't the Bible say that the Devil often appears as an angel of light in order to deceive people?
Why not?
And even if that's true, then all you've done is to demonstrate why you believe it isn't a demon. You still haven't explained how you know it's Mary.
Since I've offered no "interpretation", how do you know my interpretation is incorrect? And what is it about my interpretation that you believe to be incorrect? And why don't you share what you believe the correct interpretation to be?
Also, could you please show us scripture that backs up her interpretation of the Gospel?
LOL define miracle...The miracle of the sun was witnessed by many, including scientists. That's surely a 'heavy-hitter' of modern miracles, right?
the bible says that Satan can disguises himself as an angel of light... not that he will preach the gospel to people
telling people to trust in Jesus and that Jesus saves people from sin is the Gospel
the vision is from God and the vision told people that it was a vision of the Blessed Virgin Mary, tthat is how I know it is Mary, she appeared in a way that the children could recognize her as Mary
I am saying that since the Vision was giving honor to God and telling people to pray to Jesus and to pray for the forgivness of sins, that is how I know I can trust the visionThe warning is about deceiving people into false belief. You wouldn't be saying that you believe Fatima was genuine except for what the personage is supposed to have said--
Rhamiel said:the prayer the vision told the children to pray was "O My Jesus, Forgive Us Our Sins, Lead All Souls Into Heaven, Especially Those Of Us In Most Need Of Thy Mercy"
a demon would not even be able to bring itself to instruct people to ask God for mercy
the vision told people to ask Jesus Himself for forgivness of sins a demon could not bring itself to tell someone to do that
the bible says that Satan can disguises himself as an angel of light... not that he will preach the gospel to people
the vision is from God
and the vision told people that it was a vision of the Blessed Virgin Mary, tthat is how I know it is Mary
she appeared in a way that the children could recognize her as Mary
I am saying that since the Vision was giving honor to God and telling people to pray to Jesus and to pray for the forgivness of sins, that is how I know I can trust the vision
now if there was a vision of an angel or saint or even a vision of Jesus Himself that was preaching agianst God, then we would know this was a trick of the enemy
but with Fatima we have the [alleged] Blessed Virgin Mary telling us to trust Jesus, this is something i think no devil would be able to bring itself to do
devils lack any grace, more evil then the most evil person alive, and all those who say that Jesus is Lord are moved by the Holy Spirit, and the devils have nothing holy in them, so a devil can not trick people by first preaching the Gospel and then tricking them, they would never be able to preach the gospel in the first place
dylan michael said:She understands the gospel. Just not your interpretation of it.
erose said:Do some research on how the Catholic church tests all things that some claim as miraculous and maybe this would alleviate some of your concerns.
The Catholic church doesn't play when it comes to miracles and the claims of miracles for it knows from 2000 years of experience that false claims about miracles can be very damaging. So the Catholic church vets every miracle that is claimed with a fine tooth comb. They even have a department in the Vatican and procedures layed out on how to properly do the vetting. Also She invites scientist and skeptics to do their own investigations as well. If after a period of time if no plausible natural explanation can be offered for the event then the Church will weigh in on it and proclaim it worthy of belief.
Like anything else you have to follow the words of Jesus when he explained how you know and that is by its fruits.
I am saying that since the Vision was giving honor to God and telling people to pray to Jesus and to pray for the forgivness of sins, that is how I know I can trust the vision
now if there was a vision of an angel or saint or even a vision of Jesus Himself that was preaching agianst God, then we would know this was a trick
with Fatima we have the Blessed Virgin Mary telling us to trust Jesus, this is something i think no devil be able to bring itself to do, devils lack any grace, more evil then the most evil person alive, and all those who say that Jesus is Lord are moved by the Holy Spirit, and the devils have nothing holy in them, so a devil can not trick people by first preaching the Gospel and then tricking them, they would never be able to preach the gospel in the first place
There you go. You see, you're asking questions based on how you 'feel' Mother Mary should speak truth based on your own personal understanding of Scripture. We say that the Church weighs all She says, against Church teachings.But what you describe "Mary" as saying isn't the Gospel. In fact, it contradicts the Gospel.
The Church has tested the Vision.So then, you're just trusting because of its appearance? Doesn't the Bible tell us to test spirits?
God sent deceiving spirits?How do you know? Aren't there several examples in scripture of God sending deceiving spirits?
Where does it say that the men who preached the Gospel were not from God? I need to read the verse for myself.Are you familiar with Matthew 8:29? Why wouldn't they be able to preach the Gospel? Doesn't the Bible say that men preach the Gospel even though they're not Christ's?
Why do you think that the Mother of God never once questioned the Angel that appeared to Her if He belonged to God or not? Was She wrong to not have tested Him? Was every OT Saint who encountered an Angel wrong to have never questioned any Angel sent from Heaven? Could it be that there is actually a difference going on here? Between the false angel of light character with zero Grace and a true Angel sent from Heaven where you can feel the Grace of God radiate from Him?That wouldn't be much of a trick, though, would it? I have serious doubts about believing any apparition to be an "angel of light" if he's going to preach against God.
There you go. You see, you're asking questions based on how you 'feel' Mother Mary should speak truth based on your own personal understanding of Scripture.
We say that the Church weighs all She says, against Church teachings.
The Church has tested the Vision.
God sent deceiving spirits?
Why do you think that the Mother of God never once questioned the Angel that appeared to Her if He belonged to God or not? Was She wrong to not have tested Him?
.angel or saint or even a vision of Jesus Himself that was preaching agianst God
A) You didn't say anything but throw out one big accusation about it contradicting the Gospel. Put a little more effort into it next time and maybe I will put more into mine.As I was saying, this is a very common tactic among the Catholics here. It's a form of "poisoning the well". Just characterize anything anyone who disagrees with you says as "your interpretation" and imply that their interpretation is incorrect.
Why make a claim without backing it up?The problem with it is that you do so when no interpretation was even offered and you never follow up by stating why you believe the "interpretation" was incorrect or what the correct interpretation is.
Even the definition of what the Gospel is can be in dispute.The second problem is that the Gospel is not subjective. It does not differ from person to person.
As I asked before, I need the Scriptural quotes you're using so I may read them for myself.It's interesting that you say they weigh all she says against "Church teachings" and not "they weigh all she says by scripture".
God "allowing" deceiving spirits to punish the disobediant and unbelieving? First we must believe we are disobediant and unbelieving. We don't so we aren't afraid of being deceived by these spirits.1 Kings 22:22
2 Thessalonians 2:11
Judges 9:23
1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 18:10
1 Samuel 19:9
There are several more examples, but I'm sure you get the point.
So what is the Fatima message that was being preached against God?The angel did NOT preach against God, did he? That's the theory I answered to --
.
Kepha said:Put a little more effort into it next time and maybe I will put more into mine.
No what I am recommending to you is to do a little research on the subject before going off half-cocked. Nothing wrong with giving advice.So, you've come to a discussion forum just to tell people you don't want to discuss anything?
Actually it has been defended a great deal on this thread. But like every thing else when it comes to God and His works you can believe them or not. That is that free will God gave us.If the Catholics here can't defend their own beliefs, then why should I believe that the ones in charge of teaching them their doctrine are a reliable source?
The fruits are the conversions and the refocusing of people upon the divine in a world at the time was proclaiming that God is dead. It is a warning to all of us that hell is real and don't forget that. It is also makes the point that there are consequences for our sins and she does it in a very similar way as the OT prophets did. She also tells us we need to fly away from sin back to God before we reap those consequences.Which specific words of Jesus and which fruits are you referring to? Which words of Jesus and which fruit do you see that indicate to you that it is Mary?
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