Minimum Wage

[eastcoast_bsc]

Hey, cool down a bit there.

Ireland has poverty, there is unemployment and we have a national debt.

However everyone citizen is entitled to basic income from the State, get help either with social housing or receive rental allowances if they are in the private property sector and when they get a job they are guaranteed a basic income thanks to the minimum wage.

Our National debt is there but we are managing it with austerity measures that are hitting those who can most afford to take the hit...

Nice try. People in Ireland are screaming about austerity and draconian taxes; in addition to high taxes and poor healthcare.

 

[WatchmansMoon]

I don't think they're teaching our children in school anymore the fundamental concept of supply and demand. It applies to work and businesses too. The better you are, the more you're worth to your employer and the more you will boost the profit of the company and the more they CAN pay you. They can't pay you more than you can earn for them through profit, and if they have to raise their product prices higher to pay employees more... they will lose their business and you'll be unemployed. It's happening everywhere.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I don't think they're teaching our children in school anymore the fundamental concept of supply and demand. It applies to work and businesses too. The better you are, the more you're worth to your employer and the more you will boost the profit of the company and the more they CAN pay you. They can't pay you more than you can earn for them through profit, and if they have to raise their product prices higher to pay employees more... they will lose their business and you'll be unemployed. It's happening everywhere.

The other thing they don't teach in school is how to be charitable. That comes from removing God from the classroom.

 

[S.ilvio]

And it is no different here. So explain to me how the Ireland model is superior?

Surperior is your word. I prefer more socially compassionate.

People have free and equitable access to our Public funded Health Service, people are guaranteed unemployment benefits for as long as they are out of work, while actively searching for new employment.

We have National wage agreements between the Govt and Trade unions which has ensured industrial peace while affording workers protections within union employment.

Combined to a progressive income tax system and a fresh start after the bankers nearly destroyed us, we are going forward with jobs being created and maintaining our compassionate welfare system.

there are many, including myself who see improvements that could be made but you can't have it all when your political party is not in Govt...

 

[S.ilvio]

Nice try. People in Ireland are screaming about austerity and draconian taxes; in addition to high taxes and poor healthcare.

Go on then. I'll give you that on austerity. But that was imposed on us thanks to our vulture bankers who gambled the family silver and lost. However austerity is lessening now.

Screaming about high taxes? You mean our elites? well tough I say. They can well afford it...

I've never had a bad experience with the Public Health service and neither have anyone I know...

 

[Root of Jesse]

Surperior is your word. I prefer more socially compassionate.

People have free and equitable access to our Public funded Health Service, people are guaranteed unemployment benefits for as long as they are out of work, while actively searching for new employment.

We have National wage agreements between the Govt and Trade unions which has ensured industrial peace while affording workers protections within union employment.

Combined to a progressive income tax system and a fresh start after the bankers nearly destroyed us, we are going forward with jobs being created and maintaining our compassionate welfare system.

there are many, including myself who see improvements that could be made but you can't have it all when your political party is not in Govt...

So nobody has to work. Therefore, why should anyone work? What's the incentive? Free health care, free unemployment benefits. All you gotta do is go ask for a job once in a while. Great.

I'll tell you what. If I'm one of those employers, I close or sell my firm. Move out of country, or something. Why? Because since nobody has to work, I can't get an honest day's work out of an employee. Why should he? If he doesn't like being told what to do, or encouraged to work harder, he can just quit, and go on the government dole. Great system. On top of that, if I, as a business owner, have to pay more in taxes just because I'm ambitious and successful, I'll take my entrepreneurship elsewhere.

Welfare is not compassion when there's no incentive for anyone to work.

 

[ebia]

So nobody has to work. Therefore, why should anyone work? What's the incentive? Free health care, free unemployment benefits. All you gotta do is go ask for a job once in a while. Great. I'll tell you what. If I'm one of those employers, I close or sell my firm. Move out of country, or something. Why? Because since nobody has to work, I can't get an honest day's work out of an employee. Why should he? If he doesn't like being told what to do, or encouraged to work harder, he can just quit, and go on the government dole. Great system. On top of that, if I, as a business owner, have to pay more in taxes just because I'm ambitious and successful, I'll take my entrepreneurship elsewhere. Welfare is not compassion when there's no incentive for anyone to work.

I didn't realise that nobody in Eire works.

 

[Tallguy88]

I didn't realise that nobody in Eire works.

Nope. Just a country full of rakes and roustabouts living on the dole, apparently. :razz:

 

[Root of Jesse]

I didn't realise that nobody in Eire works.

I said "Nobody works"?

 

[S.ilvio]

So nobody has to work. Therefore, why should anyone work? What's the incentive? Free health care, free unemployment benefits. All you gotta do is go ask for a job once in a while. Great.

I'll tell you what. If I'm one of those employers, I close or sell my firm. Move out of country, or something. Why? Because since nobody has to work, I can't get an honest day's work out of an employee. Why should he? If he doesn't like being told what to do, or encouraged to work harder, he can just quit, and go on the government dole. Great system. On top of that, if I, as a business owner, have to pay more in taxes just because I'm ambitious and successful, I'll take my entrepreneurship elsewhere.

Welfare is not compassion when there's no incentive for anyone to work.

I wonder why Intel, Google, Dell, Pfeizer, Microsoft among other giant Multi-Nationals have chosen Ireland as their European HQ?

Why not ask them. If you do they will cite our well educated graduates, their willingness to work and our progressive Corporate Tax system.

There is a clear incentive to work as the rate of the dole is not as high as a working wage but we do not, as a society, demonise or cruelly penalise someone who has lost their job either. That word Compassion again. Go ask Pope Francis about it...

 

[Root of Jesse]

Nope. Just a country full of rakes and roustabouts living on the dole, apparently. :razz:

If you get free health care and unlimited unemployment benefits (as long as you're *wink, wink* looking for work...why bother?

It's known as the bird feeder mentality. If you put a feeder full of seed out, eventually, the birds will come and gorge themselves on it, and when it's gone, they'll leave. How, on earth, do those birds survive if there's no one putting out the birdseed?

 

[S.ilvio]

If you get free health care and unlimited unemployment benefits (as long as you're *wink, wink* looking for work...why bother?

It's known as the bird feeder mentality. If you put a feeder full of seed out, eventually, the birds will come and gorge themselves on it, and when it's gone, they'll leave. How, on earth, do those birds survive if there's no one putting out the birdseed?

Free, equitable access to Healthcare is akin to Satanic rituals to most TP'ers...

 

[Root of Jesse]

Free, equitable access to Healthcare is akin to Satanic rituals to most TP'ers...

In what way is it equitable? Can someone with means get better healthcare?

 

[S.ilvio]

In what way is it equitable? Can someone with means get better healthcare?

Because access to the Public System is given on the basis of medical need and not the size of your wallet.

There is a Private System also available to those who choose to pay for it. Which is strange given our Revolutionary Maoist lifestyles...

 

[Root of Jesse]

Because access to the Public System is given on the basis of medical need and not the size of your wallet.

There is a Private System also available to those who choose to pay for it. Which is strange given our Revolutionary Maoist lifestyles...

I don't see how that's different than what we have today in the US (before the ACA was put into law).

I am covered under my employer's plan, right now. If I want extras, I can pay for them. Someone who's not covered by any insurance can walk into a clinic and be provided care. If they can't pay, they don't pay.

But who, in your system, determines "medical need"? IF I walk in with a stuffy nose, will I see a doctor today? (Of course, what's the rush, I don't have to worry about work!)

In our new system, the paper work trail has increased about 10-fold. The Insurance coding system has added about 6 digits. If you sprain your ankle, they have to code it by how you sprained it. Was it work related? Were you doing sports activities(which might mean you pay for your treatment yourself)? Skiing, walking down the street, skateboarding, playing baseball? You can perform a perfectly legal activity (smoking) and the health panel can decide you don't qualify for lung cancer surgery based on that. Also, if you're 85, and your knee gives out, you're likely going to be confined to a wheelchair, because you're too old for a knee replacement.

And still at least 10-15% of the country will not have health care insurance. You see, Obamacare wasn't about health care. It was about insurance.
Really. Great. System.

 

[S.ilvio]

I don't see how that's different than what we have today in the US (before the ACA was put into law).

I am covered under my employer's plan, right now. If I want extras, I can pay for them. Someone who's not covered by any insurance can walk into a clinic and be provided care. If they can't pay, they don't pay.

But who, in your system, determines "medical need"? IF I walk in with a stuffy nose, will I see a doctor today? (Of course, what's the rush, I don't have to worry about work!)

In our new system, the paper work trail has increased about 10-fold. The Insurance coding system has added about 6 digits. If you sprain your ankle, they have to code it by how you sprained it. Was it work related? Were you doing sports activities(which might mean you pay for your treatment yourself)? Skiing, walking down the street, skateboarding, playing baseball? You can perform a perfectly legal activity (smoking) and the health panel can decide you don't qualify for lung cancer surgery based on that. Also, if you're 85, and your knee gives out, you're likely going to be confined to a wheelchair, because you're too old for a knee replacement.

And still at least 10-15% of the country will not have health care insurance. You see, Obamacare wasn't about health care. It was about insurance.
Really. Great. System.

This conversation is getting a bit toxic now with the snide remarks, from the angry TP section I might add.

It's New Year's Eve. While I still despair of Catholics advocating for race to the bottom slave wages, I'll leave you to stew in your juices...

 

[Root of Jesse]

This conversation is getting a bit toxic now with the snide remarks, from the angry TP section I might add.

It's New Year's Eve. While I still despair of Catholics advocating for race to the bottom slave wages, I'll leave you to stew in your juices...

Of course! Avoiding the question. Proves the point, doesn't it?

God helps those who helps themselves. Those who want to rely on a nanny-state, who knows?

I don't need, and never will need, government-provided health care. In 57 years, 45 of which I've been gainfully employed, I've taken a total of 3 weeks of unemployment benefits, which are paid for by the employer. I take care of myself, and my family. I don't rely on others. By the grace of God.

FWIW, California has the highest or second-highest minimum wage in the country...and San Francisco has the highest in the state-the mayor is advocating $15/hr. Do you realize that a nationally known sandwich place which has a well recognized jingle for $5 foot-longs cannot afford to sell a foot-long sandwich for $5 in San Francisco? In other words, because of the city government, the business cannot afford to do business in the city without altering its business plan. Great. Another effect of all this is that companies are moving out of San Francisco. Many out of the state. Excellent business model! And, of course, make sure we have time for the Gay Pride parade down Market St...brilliant!

 

[Anhelyna]

AHA - but you see in the UK and the RoI health care is not paid for by your employer - that's one of the reasons they can pay a reasonable minimum wage.

In practice we all pay for everyone's healthcare - we pay a contribution from our wages/salaries for such things as pensions and health benefits.

It's just a very different system .

By the way - I started training aged 19 and after I qualified I've never needed unemployment benefit - but my contributions have ensured that someone who needed it was able to have it.

I've had some time in Hospital - a total of about 3 weeks in 70+ years - so again other people like my husband benefitted. There was never any possibility of me getting a bill for his treatment - and he got the best of care until his death.

 

[S.ilvio]

AHA - but you see in the UK and the RoI health care is not paid for by your employer - that's one of the reasons they can pay a reasonable minimum wage.

In practice we all pay for everyone's healthcare - we pay a contribution from our wages/salaries for such things as pensions and health benefits.

It's just a very different system .

By the way - I started training aged 19 and after I qualified I've never needed unemployment benefit - but my contributions have ensured that someone who needed it was able to have it.

I've had some time in Hospital - a total of about 3 weeks in 70+ years - so again other people like my husband benefitted. There was never any possibility of me getting a bill for his treatment - and he got the best of care until his death.

The UK NHS (National Health Service) is a living, breathing miracle of foresight and social care that is the envy of many other countries, including Ireland. We're getting closer, very slowly but most importantly our Will and intention are in the right place...

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

This conversation is getting a bit toxic now with the snide remarks, from the angry TP section I might add.

It's New Year's Eve. While I still despair of Catholics advocating for race to the bottom slave wages, I'll leave you to stew in your juices...

Don't forget your toys prior to fleeing the sandbox.