Minimum Wage

[LoAmmi]

Nope don't think so. Trickle down economics works a lot better than redistribution. Is it perfect heavens no!!! But it is better than Keynesian economics has has been shown (and continues to be shown) not to work.

Do you not know what false dichotomy means?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Have you read the Pope's views on the myth of Trickle Down..?

Why don't you tell us what you think the Pope said?

 

[LoAmmi]

Why don't you tell us what you think the Pope said?

The quote I read said that the cup never overflows but continues to get higher.

 

[Root of Jesse]

You know, I can see where some people would think that's what the pope said.

But he was speaking about greed in general, and in that, I agree with him. Whenever any entity on earth wants as much as he can get of anything, regardless of whether he needs all of that, it's a bad thing. It's the law of excess.

Couched in other terms, does anyone 'need' 200 pairs of shoes? Or 40 coats or dresses? Or a 25 lb turkey to feed 4 people? How much profit does a company need before it's excessive? That's a question for the investors.

Trickle down works, maybe not so much at a national or corporate level, but certainly down the line. I earn good money. I give to the poor. That's trickle down. Do I give half of what I earn? No. And if I get a 10% raise or bonus, will I give most of that to charity? No. I will give some, though. It's the fact that I earn way more than I need that tells me that I can give my car to charity, or donate a furniture set to St. Vincent De Paul, both of which happened this year. Or give a seldom used barbecue to the parish. That's what trickle down is. The trickle is not over the rim. It's in the bottom.

Every day for a year and a half, I've been walking past the same homeless guy on my way to my job. I don't want to give him money. Not that I'm responsible for how he spends it, but in that neighborhood, pulling out my wallet could get me mugged. But after trying to figure out for a long time what I could do for him, at first, if I went to lunch, I'd eat most of it, and give the homeless guy the rest. But I don't eat out that often. I bring my lunch. So then I started saving him some of it. Giving to him out of my own plate, not of my excess. I eat less, and give him some. My own wife doesn't know I do this. That's trickle down. Once you realize you have enough, you can give of what you have to those who don't. The trick is figuring out when you have enough.

Corporations give freely to charity. They also give raises, bonuses, and incentives to their employees. If they don't, they don't keep employees very long...

It is a greedy world. Eve was greedy, and it goes from there. Acting charitably to those around you goes a long way, and that's 'trickle down'.

 

[LoAmmi]

But he was speaking about greed in general, and in that, I agree with him. Whenever any entity on earth wants as much as he can get of anything, regardless of whether he needs all of that, it's a bad thing. It's the law of excess.

This is exactly why trickle down economics, on a national scale, doesn't work. But people keep pushing it like it does. What does happen is that the richest end up with more things than Solomon had while the poorest end up with less and less.

 

[S.ilvio]

Why don't you tell us what you think the Pope said?

Direct quote..:

Some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world.

This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naive trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralised workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting.

 

[Needing_Grace]

This is exactly why trickle down economics, on a national scale, doesn't work. But people keep pushing it like it does. What does happen is that the richest end up with more things than Solomon had while the poorest end up with less and less.

Well, it actually does work in doing what it is designed to do: concentrate the most wealth into the fewest hands possible.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Direct quote..:

Some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world.

This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naive trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralised workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting.

Yes, that's right. But what trickle down theories assume that? The theories don't. The reality does, because humanity is greedy. Trickle down economics isn't about excess spilling over to the poor. It's about the cup being tilted to pour down, exactly as I described above. Any economic system which has humanity involved in it succumbs to greed. We give loads of money to African countries, and the rich take it for themselves, and the poor get nothing. If we could take that money and directly give it to those poor, as the Catholic Church does, those people would benefit. Same with corporations-if they're not thinking only of the bottom line.

Here's the problem: If I give $10 in taxes to the government for helping the poor, the poor, after processing and all, might get $1. If I give $10 to United Way for the poor, the poor might get $3. If I give a poor person $10, he gets $10. Individuals taking care of the poor is better than institutions taking care of the poor.

 

[Root of Jesse]

This is exactly why trickle down economics, on a national scale, doesn't work. But people keep pushing it like it does. What does happen is that the richest end up with more things than Solomon had while the poorest end up with less and less.

People don't seem to see that jobs aren't created by people who don't have money. Part of trickle down is that a company that prospers has more to hire more people so that they can help the company be more productive. Hiring people and paying them is a form of trickle down economics working.

The top 5% of income earners paying 70% of the taxes in this country is another instance. In this country, the bottom 30% don't pay income taxes...

 

[LoAmmi]

People don't seem to see that jobs aren't created by people who don't have money. Part of trickle down is that a company that prospers has more to hire more people so that they can help the company be more productive. Hiring people and paying them is a form of trickle down economics working.

Actually, it appears, to me anyway, that executive salaries balloon and people are expected to work longer hours. Some places are content with running their employees ragged and hiring as few as possible while the CEO enjoys a salary 300 times as much as their average employee.

That isn't creating jobs, that's helping the fat cats become fatter.

The top 5% of income earners paying 70% of the taxes in this country is another instance. In this country, the bottom 30% don't pay income taxes...

The top 1% own 40% of the wealth. The bottom 80% own 5% of the wealth. I'm sorry if the top percent have to pay more. I mean, they can't afford that fifth yacht. It make me cry. It really does.

 

[S.ilvio]

Yes, that's right. But what trickle down theories assume that? The theories don't. The reality does, because humanity is greedy. Trickle down economics isn't about excess spilling over to the poor. It's about the cup being tilted to pour down, exactly as I described above. Any economic system which has humanity involved in it succumbs to greed. We give loads of money to African countries, and the rich take it for themselves, and the poor get nothing. If we could take that money and directly give it to those poor, as the Catholic Church does, those people would benefit. Same with corporations-if they're not thinking only of the bottom line.

Here's the problem: If I give $10 in taxes to the government for helping the poor, the poor, after processing and all, might get $1. If I give $10 to United Way for the poor, the poor might get $3. If I give a poor person $10, he gets $10. Individuals taking care of the poor is better than institutions taking care of the poor.

Are you trying to second guess the Pope?

He states his views so clearly, its very difficult to mis-represent them.

"Some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world.

This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naive trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralised workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting."

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The quote I read said that the cup never overflows but continues to get higher.

And that's what eventually happened.

At first, those who made more, spent more here, but then, they stopped spending here, and moved the jobs of those in the middle and lower classes to low income economies like China and India.

So, yeah, instead of the glass flowing over, they merely got themselves bigger glasses.

Reagan's trickle down economics philosophy, was based on his trust of human beings to do what was morally right.

He also threatened them with putting labor and environmental laws in place in the cheap labor economies they moved to, if they didn't let their prosperity overflow here.



Jim

 

[Root of Jesse]

Are you trying to second guess the Pope?

He states his views so clearly, its very difficult to mis-represent them.

"Some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world.

This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naive trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralised workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting."

You do yourself no good repeating the quote. I said I agree with it. But Trickle Down Theories do not just assume this. They try to look, as Jim says above, to the good in humanity to do something right. They don't just assume it.

The problem is that humanity is greedy, just as I said above. Especially when you get to bigger and bigger groups looking out for themselves. The bottom line of a company is...the bottom line. Let's not forget what many companies do in the way of charitable giving...not that it's enough, but they do.

You know, the best way to take care of the poor is for each of us to directly do it. In the Philippines, where there is no such thing as welfare, poor people with a one room cardboard hut will allow someone with less to sleep next to them on the dirt. Out of gratitude, the next morning, the poorer one will sweep out the hut. Trickle down works in the Bible, too. Remember the widow who gave her two mites. How'd she get them? What'd she do with them?

The pope is advocating that people, in general, be less greedy. He's not just shaking his fist at corporations. I'm sure if you thought about it, you could find a way to be more generous. I know I can. And that's the point.

 

[S.ilvio]

You do yourself no good repeating the quote. I said I agree with it. But Trickle Down Theories do not just assume this. They try to look, as Jim says above, to the good in humanity to do something right. They don't just assume it.

The problem is that humanity is greedy, just as I said above. Especially when you get to bigger and bigger groups looking out for themselves. The bottom line of a company is...the bottom line. Let's not forget what many companies do in the way of charitable giving...not that it's enough, but they do.

You know, the best way to take care of the poor is for each of us to directly do it. In the Philippines, where there is no such thing as welfare, poor people with a one room cardboard hut will allow someone with less to sleep next to them on the dirt. Out of gratitude, the next morning, the poorer one will sweep out the hut. Trickle down works in the Bible, too. Remember the widow who gave her two mites. How'd she get them? What'd she do with them?

The pope is advocating that people, in general, be less greedy. He's not just shaking his fist at corporations. I'm sure if you thought about it, you could find a way to be more generous. I know I can. And that's the point.

I'm not going to argue with you as I have a lot of time for your contributions here.

All I'll say is that in reality unregulated Capitalism has wrought massive pain and suffering on the Third world and to communities in Western Society.

The pope has witnessed this in his Priestly life and is not afraid to denounce the principles that are pillars of such a heartless system...

 

[Root of Jesse]

I'm not going to argue with you as I have a lot of time for your contributions here.

All I'll say is that in reality unregulated Capitalism has wrought massive pain and suffering on the Third world and to communities in Western Society.

The pope has witnessed this in his Priestly life and is not afraid to denounce the principles that are pillars of such a heartless system...

So I am asking you, Silvio. Who regulates?

I guess you skip right over where I said, twice, I agree with the Pope. And I agree with you. You're putting the emphasis on the wrong word. Unregulated is the key word. But who regulates? I know entire countries that are capitalist and the government regulates and the poor are dirt poor and suffer. Typically, these countries are shown in "Save the Children" ads on TV. I know countries like the US where we swing between too much regulation and too little, and the poor are, by world standards, wealthy. Why do you think that kids in the ghetto are fighting and killing each other over a limited edition Air Jordan basketball shoe that costs $300???

Systems do not have hearts. I see WE AGREE there, too. Systems do not. People do. People should be voting with their feet. I won't buy Nike because they're aware of the problem I mentioned above, yet they continue with it. I don't buy clothes when I know they're produced in some sweat shops, although in some cases I do because the people working in those sweat shops are putting food on their family tables. I don't typically eat at McDonalds. I'd rather eat at Chik-fil-a. Or Five Guys Hamburgers.

See? We agree. Take your consumerism to stores where they pay their people well (enough). Don't rely on government to do the regulating for you. That's artificial. If you regulate with your pocket book, and advocate for regulating that way, it's more true than having government do it. Besides, when government does it, they tend to drive the evil underground.

 

[Michie]

Just for informational purposes. Not a doorway to get political in the main forum.

Movin' on up: Minimum wage goes up in 13 states with New Year

Minimum wage workers in 13 states and four cities will see higher paychecks come the New Year on January 1st. For those laboring in ...

Movin' on up: Minimum wage goes up in 13 states with New Year - Politics & Policy - Catholic Online

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

I'm not going to argue with you as I have a lot of time for your contributions here.

All I'll say is that in reality unregulated Capitalism has wrought massive pain and suffering on the Third world and to communities in Western Society.

The pope has witnessed this in his Priestly life and is not afraid to denounce the principles that are pillars of such a heartless system...

How about your country Ireland that has more of a Keynesian style economic system? Ireland is a basket case. They keep coming to the US with hat in hand.


Look at the US. In 5 years our economy has basically stagnated. Unemployment is high, debt is through the ceiling. The Obama-care takeover of our healthcare system is an abject failure and disaster.

 

[S.ilvio]

How about your country Ireland that has more of a Keynesian style economic system? Ireland is a basket case. They keep coming to the US with hat in hand.


Look at the US. In 5 years our economy has basically stagnated. Unemployment is high, debt is through the ceiling. The Obama-care takeover of our healthcare system is an abject failure and disaster.

Ireland is on the road to recovery again after our lack of regulation of our Banking system nearly sunk us.

Thankfully we're over the worst and its steady as she goes again.

Sorry to disappoint you and scupper your rigging...

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Ireland is on the road to recovery again after our lack of regulation of our Banking system nearly sunk us.

Thankfully we're over the worst and its steady as she goes again.

Sorry to disappoint you and scupper your rigging...

Congratulations on this:


As of today the unemployment rate in Ireland is 12.6 percent. I would get my pitchfork.

 

[JoshuaCh1v9]

It's no good Andy - the Americans cannot understand that with us, the minimum wage works - but then we do have the NHS [ with all its faults ] so everyone gets medical care , and a State Pension . and Sickness benefits , not to mention maternity benefits , child benefit - and all of these are available to all - unemployed and employed alike though they are to some degree means tested.

It's just a different system and mindset

Aye, tis true. And glad I am of it too. A much more caring society.