Millennial Considerations

LastSeven said:

What?

It clearly says that Satan was cast out of heaven and then came the authority of Jesus and the blood of the lamb. I don't know what you're trying to say but the scripture is pretty clear.

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Jesus crucifixion IS the Blood of the Lamb
How can you not get it?

seventysevens said:

Jesus crucifixion IS the Blood of the Lamb
How can you not get it?

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Oh, is that what you were trying to say? O.k. so how do you not see the connection to the casting out of Satan in Revelation 12? Are you inserting an imaginary gap or something?

Just for convenience, let me post the relevant verses again.

Revelation 12
“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.

See? Now have come salvation, power, kingdom, authority, for the accuser has been hurled down. Clear connection between the crucifixion and the casting out. How do you not see that?

DavidPT said:

That's stretching it to think John would bother to mention the bodily resurrection of the rest of the dead, but would neglect to mention the bodily resurrection of the blessed saints as well.

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What makes you think the second resurrection is only for the rest of the dead? It doesn't actually say that, does it?

It is baffling that you are having such trouble with this
When Jesus was crucified and rose again to life - THAT IS When salvation came and when a person accepts this gift of salvation is when that individual recievs salvation or if there are many doing it at the same time - their personal salvation comes when they accept Jesus gift of salvation
The "the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah."
Is reference that satan is at last no longer in heaven at all and has been forever removed from all access and no more will he accuse anyone of anything for Only Jesus will be in power and satan will be cast to the earth and rule on earth for a short period of time before he is cast into the abyss
the angels are rejoicing that satan has lost all of his position of power , that was permitted to him by God

LastSeven said:

Just for convenience, let me post the relevant verses again.

Revelation 12
“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.

See? Now have come salvation, power, kingdom, authority, for the accuser has been hurled down. Clear connection between the crucifixion and the casting out. How do you not see that?

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seventysevens said:

It is baffling that you are having such trouble with this
When Jesus was crucified and rose again to life - THAT IS When salvation came and when a person accepts this gift of salvation is when that individual recievs salvation or if there are many doing it at the same time - their personal salvation comes when they accept Jesus gift of salvation
The "the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah."
Is reference that satan is at last no longer in heaven at all and has been forever removed from all access and no more will he accuse anyone of anything for Only Jesus will be in power and satan will be cast to the earth and rule on earth for a short period of time before he is cast into the abyss
the angels are rejoicing that satan has lost all of his position of power , that was permitted to him by God

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It sounds like we agree. Maybe I have you confused with somebody else, but I could've sworn that you thought Satan still had access to heaven, yet here you are admitting that he was cast out with the crucifixion.

DavidPT said:

As to this 42 month tribulation, where I'm assuming you are meaning Revelation 13 for one, like I pointed out numerous times already, Revelation 20:4 clearly places the time of those events prior to satan being loosed. Are you then saying after the tribulation there will be a little season where this battle then takes place? No matter how one looks at it, this simply can't work if coming from a perspective that places the thousand years before the 2nd coming. In your proposed scenario you would have the 42 month tribulation taking place during the thousand years rather than a time when satan is not bound. There couldn't possibly be a great tribulation occurring during the thousand years when satan is bound. That is ludicrous since this 42 month tribulation will also involve great deception, something satan himself will be fully behind.

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Yes satan is loosed at the end of this "Non-Literal" word 1000, and this does represent the little season, 42 months literal time.

Your problem is you look at 1000 as literal time, a literal number, its not.

Your bound by your human reason again, looking at 1000-3.5=996.5 years

1000 not a literal figure, long period of time.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


Until Revelation 13:14-15 is fulfilled first, this part in Revelation 20:4---and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---can't be fulfilled. Where then does Revelation 20:4 clearly place the time of Revelation 13:14-15? Before satan is loosed, or after he is loosed? Before he is loosed of course.

Clearly Revelation 13:14-15 can't occur while satan is bound. And clearly it CAN'T occur when he is loosed after the thousand years if it already occurred before he is loosed after the thousand years. What option does that leave us with? That Revelation 13:14-15 is meaning before the thousand years, therefore clearly telling us that the souls of them that John saw in Revelation 20:4, which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, that this was fulfilled sometime prior to the beginning of the thousand years. How can anyone read things such as---which had not---neither had received---and not see that this is in past tense in relation to then living and reigning with Christ a thousand years?


What I would like to see is this, since I'm assuming Amils will still disagree here, if you disagree, then debunk what I submitted and show how this would not be correct. If it's anything like my past encounters with Amils on other boards, no one will ever get around to debunking anything, but will just continue claiming Amil is the correct position, regardless. I guess we'll see.

LastSeven said:

It sounds like we agree. Maybe I have you confused with somebody else, but I could've sworn that you thought Satan still had access to heaven, yet here you are admitting that he was cast out with the crucifixion.

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As I explained before this is a coming future event , which we will likely be here when it happens , and by access is like if you get called to a courtroom to face the judge , you are there only for court business and after the court business is done you go home , same with ha~satan , he is allowed in the court room of God now , but after he has done his accusing he has to leave as he is not allowed to stay any longer than you are allowed to stay in a courtroom after court has finished doing business for that day
Some people think that having access means living in heaven , it does not

DavidPT said:

What I would like to see is this, since I'm assuming Amils will still disagree here, if you disagree, then debunk what I submitted and show how this would not be correct. If it's anything like my past encounters with Amils on other boards, no one will ever get around to debunking anything, but will just continue claiming Amil is the correct position, regardless. I guess we'll see.

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So let me get this straight. You're saying Revelation 13 takes place before the thousand years,and you're asking an Amil to debunk that? Why would I want to debunk that when I "kind of" agree with it?

Why kind of? Because I think it's not only in the past, but ongoing. The mark of the beast is still here, always has been, and people are still being figuratively beheaded and resurrected as they come to new life in Christ every day.

seventysevens said:

As I explained before this is a coming future event

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Oh, so you are inserting an imaginary gap between the crucifixion and the casting out. I was right the first time.

LastSeven said:

The mark of the beast is still here, .

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Since you say it is here , show me a picture of it , show me people who have it on their right hand or forehead

LastSeven said:

The mark of the beast is still here, always has been, and people are still being figuratively beheaded

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figuratively beheaded? so you do not believe the scripture is real
Just as I have always said amil will make stuff up and say things are figuratively, spiritual , or allegorical to fit your idea of truth

seventysevens said:

Since you say it is here , show me a picture of it , show me people who have it on their right hand or forehead

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We have clear descriptions of the mark of God in scripture. Doesn't it make sense to use scripture to interpret scripture?

Exodus 13
" For seven days eat bread made without yeast and on the seventh day hold a festival to the LORD"..."This observance will be for you like a sign on your hand and a reminder on your forehead that this law of the LORD is to be on your lips."

Deuteronomy 6
... 2 that you may fear the Lord your God, you and your son and your son’s son, by keeping all his statutes and his commandments, which I command you, all the days of your life; ... 6 And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart; 7 ... 8 And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.

Deuteronomy 11
You shall therefore lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul; and you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.

Revelation 7
saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God upon their foreheads.”

Ephesians 4
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption

angels mark people for God's destruction of Jerusalem in 6th Century B.C.
Ezekiel 9
Now the glory of the God of Israel had gone up from the cherubim on which it rested to the threshold of the house; and he called to the man clothed in linen, who had the writing case at his side. 4 And the Lord said to him, “Go through the city, through Jerusalem, and put a mark upon the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations that are committed in it.” 5 And to the others he said in my hearing, “Pass through the city after him, and smite; your eye shall not spare, and you shall show no pity; 6 slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women, but touch no one upon whom is the mark.

The mark of God is spiritual, and so is the mark of the beast.

seventysevens said:

figuratively beheaded? so you do not believe the scripture is real
Just as I have always said amil will make stuff up and say things are figuratively, spiritual , or allegorical to fit your idea of truth

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Oh, the scripture is very real, but once again, I use scripture to interpret scripture. Haven't you as a Christian been born again? Weren't you crucified with Christ? Didn't you die with Christ and come to new life in his resurrection? Isn't that the very definition of resurrection. To first die and then come to life.

Galatians 2:19
19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.

Romans 6 makes it clear that we were crucified with him, which means we died. And further tells us that we have been brought from death to life in Christ. That is literally the definition of resurrection. Dying, then coming to life.

Romans 6:4
For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.

But that’s talking about the future physical resurrection, is it not? Because just as Christ was physically raised from the dead, we will be also. Or is it? Let’s look at another example.

Romans 6:6
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

Paul is clearly stating that, in a sense, we were crucified with him and died with him. Though of course we didn’t die physically when he was crucified, rather Paul explains that it was “our old self” which died along with him. All of these examples are speaking of spiritual death, and therefore, the life that we received after this death is also spiritual life. When you put it all together you have a spiritual resurrection. We died, and came to life.

Paul goes on to confirm that we have been brought back to life already.

Romans 6:13
Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life

In John 5 we can see the words of Jesus himself, where he explains that simply believing on him we are passed from death unto life. And further confirms that now is the hour that the dead shall live.

John 5:24-25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

The hour that now is, means currently we are in the hour that people are being resurrected by coming into life by believing in Christ. This is the first resurrection.

Still not convinced? Well then Ephesians 2 is by far the clearest scripture that tells us that we’ve been resurrected with Christ, and even goes one step further. Not only does it say that we were resurrected with Christ, but also that we are now seated on our thrones with Christ.

Ephesians 2:4-6
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

So don't believe me when I tell you that the first resurrection is spiritual. Believe the scriptures.

seventysevens said:

Since you say it is here , show me a picture of it , show me people who have it on their right hand or forehead

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The mark of God is spiritual, and so is the mark of the beast. Every single person is marked. The innocent are marked by God, the rest are marked by the beast. You are either with God, or against God.

in Mark 9:40 Jesus said
For whoever is not against us, is for us.

James 4:4 says
4 You adulterous people,[a] don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

You're either with God, or against God. You either have the mark of God, or you have the mark of the beast.

LastSeven said:

The mark of God is spiritual, and so is the mark of the beast.

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The scripture speak LITERALLY of a mark that a person is required to have in their right hand or forehead in order to buy or sell anything at all - this means a real mark that retail companies be it Sears
and every restaurant and every company that sells a service will require that you show them proof that you have this mark before you can buy food,
They will not believe your spiritual mark of the BEAST,

You said the mark is here , so how do you prove it?
it is a real mark 666 of the BEAST , not spiritual

LastSeven said:

So let me get this straight. You're saying Revelation 13 takes place before the thousand years,and you're asking an Amil to debunk that? Why would I want to debunk that when I "kind of" agree with it?

Why kind of? Because I think it's not only in the past, but ongoing. The mark of the beast is still here, always has been, and people are still being figuratively beheaded and resurrected as they come to new life in Christ every day.

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Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


Let's start here then. When did this begin? It definitely can't precede Revelation 13:1, because until that beast rises out of the sea, which I take to be meaning the bottomless pit, and that Revelation 13:3 is then fulfilled, the events in Revelation 13:14-15 preceding that would be nonsensical. There is only one 42 month reign of the beast and that this reign can't occur during the thousand years while satan is bound. And if it can't occur once satan is loosed after the thousand years because Revelation 20:4 indicates it has already occurred prior to that loosing, so what is logically left then as an option, if not that Revelation 13:14-15 has to occur prior to the beginning of the thousand years? What other options are there?

The sea is usually meaning a vast amount of people , very large population in these context
a powerful ruler from a large population come out

seventysevens said:

The scripture speak LITERALLY of a mark that a person is required to have in their right hand or forehead in order to buy or sell anything at all - this means a real mark that retail companies be it Sears
and every restaurant and every company that sells a service will require that you show them proof that you have this mark before you can buy food,
They will not believe your spiritual mark of the BEAST,

You said the mark is here , so how do you prove it?
it is a real mark 666 of the BEAST , not spiritual

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Didn't you see the verses I posted above about the spiritual mark of God?

Exodus 13
" For seven days eat bread made without yeast and on the seventh day hold a festival to the LORD"..."This observance will be for you like a sign on your handand a reminder on your forehead that this law of the LORD is to be on your lips."

Deuteronomy 6
... 2 that you may fear the Lord your God, you and your son and your son’s son, by keeping all his statutes and his commandments, which I command you, all the days of your life; ... 6 And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart; 7 ... 8 And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.

Deuteronomy 11
You shall therefore lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul; and you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.

I think you need to think things through a bit. A physical mark does not make sense and does not jive with the gospel.