Mikvah

[Rainie]

All I can think of right now is...

Here's how John did it... he stood outside of the "religious organizations," it seemed that he who Scripture says there was "none greater than" Matthew 11:11, didn't follow religious halacha, per say.
Notice how the Priests etc. were sent "out" to John in the wilderness to question him?
Why wasn't John in the "Standard Mikveh" locations?
Doing things according to religious traditions?
Why were the Priests so puzzled by Johns system of baptism?
Why did they even bother to go "out" and question this man, who was baptizing "not according to THEIR law?

Notice how John says "make straight the ways of the Lord" and he says this to the Priests etc.! As he quotes Isaiah. That's pretty gutsy, pretty powerful stuff.

You can't make straight something that has not been made twisted...

In my humble opinion I think John is making a pretty profound statement here, standing outside of the "institutions" in the wilderness, in nature, feet covered in mudd, not following the "powers that be" but telling the "powers that be" to "make straight the ways of the Lord."

And John was making an impact! Enough of an impact that the Preists had to come out and confront him. So who were the people he baptized? Why did people go to John instead of to the "Offical Locations" to get baptised?

Hmmmm, "Make straight the ways of the Lord."

Obedience is about Walking in the Spirit of the Law this is far more powerful and challenging then trying to follow the Letter of the Law.

Learn to Shema (heed, pay attention to) the voice of God AND NO OTHER and the rest will come naturally.


John 1
19 Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?”
20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.”
21 And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?”
He said, “I am not.”
“Are you the Prophet?”
And he answered, “No.”
22 Then they said to him, “Who are you, that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?”
23 He said: “I am


‘ The voice of one crying in the wilderness:

“ Make straight the way of the LORD,”’

as the prophet Isaiah said.”
24 Now those who were sent were from the Pharisees. 25 And they asked him, saying, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”
26 John answered them, saying, “I baptize with water, but there stands One among you whom you do not know. 27 It is He who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose.”
28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.


Blessings
Rain

 

[visionary]

All I can think of right now is...

Here's how John did it... he stood outside of the "religious organizations," it seemed that he who Scripture says there was "none greater than" Matthew 11:11, didn't follow religious halacha, per say.
Notice how the Priests etc. were sent "out" to John in the wilderness to question him?
Why wasn't John in the "Standard Mikveh" locations?
Doing things according to religious traditions?
Why were the Priests so puzzled by Johns system of baptism?
Why did they even bother to go "out" and question this man, who was baptizing "not according to THEIR law?

Notice how John says "make straight the ways of the Lord" and he says this to the Priests etc.! As he quotes Isaiah. That's pretty gutsy, pretty powerful stuff.

You can't make straight something that has not been made twisted...

In my humble opinion I think John is making a pretty profound statement here, standing outside of the "institutions" in the wilderness, in nature, feet covered in mudd, not following the "powers that be" but telling the "powers that be" to "make straight the ways of the Lord."

And John was making an impact! Enough of an impact that the Preists had to come out and confront him. So who were the people he baptized? Why did people go to John instead of to the "Offical Locations" to get baptised?

Hmmmm, "Make straight the ways of the Lord."

Obedience is about Walking in the Spirit of the Law this is far more powerful and challenging then trying to follow the Letter of the Law.

Learn to Shema (heed, pay attention to) the voice of God AND NO OTHER and the rest will come naturally.


John 1
19 Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?”
20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.”
21 And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?”
He said, “I am not.”
“Are you the Prophet?”
And he answered, “No.”
22 Then they said to him, “Who are you, that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?”
23 He said: “I am


‘ The voice of one crying in the wilderness:

“ Make straight the way of the LORD,”’

as the prophet Isaiah said.”
24 Now those who were sent were from the Pharisees. 25 And they asked him, saying, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”
26 John answered them, saying, “I baptize with water, but there stands One among you whom you do not know. 27 It is He who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose.”
28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.


Blessings
Rain

And those poor people did not get a baptism certificate either. They did not become members of the John the baptist club and belong to any of the local synagogues. You did make an excellent observation about the fact, his message was so powerful the powerful came out to see him. They must have seen a reduction in the numbers of those who were listening to them and were wandering where they all went and why.

 

[Rainie]

Visionary, I agree. Those Religious leaders were surely frustrated. You worded it perfectly "his message was so powerful the powerful came out to see him."

John the Baptist may have lacked all the "right stuff" (no standard mikveh made to spec, with the right type of water, and specific blessings etc.) but it's the heart that God sees and judges not the "stuff."

Act from the Spirit and leave the rest to HIM.

Blessings Rain

 

[visionary]

It is going to be awesome when we see that again. I believe we will.

 

[David Ben Yosef]

They did not become members of the John the baptist club and belong to any of the local synagogues.

I'm curious as to why you would assume they didn't attend synagogues?

 

[Rainie]

I'm curious as to why you would assume they didn't attend synagogues?

I don't think Visionary was saying that they didn't attend synagogue but more the point that those people didn't have to join an "organized club, become a member of a Synagogue etc." in order to be Baptised by John the Baptist.

John the Baptist stood outside of the "organized institutions" of his time for a reason.

Matthew 3:3
For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying:“ The voice of one crying in the wilderness:‘ Prepare the way of the LORD;Make His paths straight.’”

You can't make straight that which has not been made twisted.

Blessings- Rain

 

[BatZion]

I see no reason why a Messianic Jew should not be able to mikvah.

Yeah, but if you go to an actual Mikvah, I just wouldn't mention the Messianic part. I myself would love to be able to perform this mitzvot, but there isn't one near me. Every synagogue, I don't care if it's Messianic or not, should first make sure they have a mikvah.

 

[ChavaK]

Yeah, but if you go to an actual Mikvah, I just wouldn't mention the Messianic part.

That would be deceptive, and the mikveh lady should be informed ahead
of time. It is right and proper to allow the rabbi to decide whether or not he will allow a Messianic, Jewish or not, to use the mikveh.




*back to lurking, I couldn't let this go by without comment*

 

[BatZion]

That would be deceptive, and the mikveh lady should be informed ahead
of time. It is right and proper to allow the rabbi to decide whether or not he will allow a Messianic, Jewish or not, to use the mikveh.




*back to lurking, I couldn't let this go by without comment*

That's not what Torah says. It doesn't say that you can't be Messianic. I'm sure G-d would not disallow a Messianic. So what gives a human that right? A person who wants to follow the Law should be allowed to. Personally, I wouldn't feel that it was anyone's business. I find it interesting that a person can be a Budhist or an atheist and still be considered a Jew, but you say you believe in Yeshua, and suddenly you're not Jewish. Hmmm.

 

[ChavaK]

That's not what Torah says. It doesn't say that you can't be Messianic. I'm sure G-d would not disallow a Messianic. So what gives a human that right? A person who wants to follow the Law should be allowed to. Personally, I wouldn't feel that it was anyone's business. I find it interesting that a person can be a Budhist or an atheist and still be considered a Jew, but you say you believe in Yeshua, and suddenly you're not Jewish. Hmmm.

What people need to realize is that it is not all about "them".
Others have the perfect right to interpret and live Torah by
their own interpretation.

You may disagree with the belief that Messianics should not use a mikveh,
but it is within the right of Judaism to determine for itself these issues.
Just as you have every right to your own interpretations and beliefs.

To use a mikveh without advising the rabbi of one's faith is not only
deceptive, but it may also cause the congregation/rabbi/mikveh lady
to do actions which directly contradict their own faith.
And that is blatantly unfair.

Now, there may be mikvehs that do allow Messianics, and if they do,
then that is their decision and all is fair. But unless one asks, and acts
in good faith (literally), then one does not know.

I contrast this with a Messianic gentile couple that came to our congregation and
passed themselves off as Jews. The man was being called for aliyahs and
counted as a minyon. This is just plain wrong, and caused halachic issues
for other members of the congregation.

As they say, honesty is always the best policy

Oh, and if one is born a Jew but is messianic, they are still a jew. No way of becoming a non-Jew.
It's just that they have lost their priviledges that the Jewish community would have normally
bestowed upon them.

 

[BatZion]

Oh, and if one is born a Jew but is messianic, they are still a jew. No way of becoming a non-Jew.
It's just that they have lost their priviledges that the Jewish community would have normally
bestowed upon them.

I think that's sad. I'm sorry to say I disagree with you on this issue. But, I'll leave it at that. I do not want to argue.

 

[ChavaK]

I think that's sad. I'm sorry to say I disagree with you on this issue. But, I'll leave it at that. I do not want to argue.

I am not one to argue, nor to debate with others. I will always state the
beliefs of Judaism and nothing more.

One can certainly discuss without arguing...

 

[BatZion]

I am not one to argue, nor to debate with others. I will always state the
beliefs of Judaism and nothing more.

One can certainly discuss without arguing...

That's true.

 

[xDenax]

That would be deceptive, and the mikveh lady should be informed ahead
of time. It is right and proper to allow the rabbi to decide whether or not he will allow a Messianic, Jewish or not, to use the mikveh.

I agree. They have the right to determine who can use their mikveh and who cannot.

 

[Rainie]

That would be deceptive, and the mikveh lady should be informed ahead
of time. It is right and proper to allow the rabbi to decide whether or not he will allow a Messianic, Jewish or not, to use the mikveh

I must agree with Chavak on this.

If a person believes Messiah is Jesus/Yeshua then they should want to confess it and own it.

If that same person is banished from Jewish Synagogoues/Mikveh's etc. simply because they confess Messiah has come then I believe that, that Gentile Believer should embrace their rejection as one more way to relate with Messiah Himself and to people like John the Baptist who happily stood in the MUD to mikveh the people rather then to be institutionalized and hushed.

Deception, crookedness and manipulation of truth amongst Jews and Gentiles is what ultimately leads the groups down pathways of destruction and hatred.

Truth, is always a better route even if it's not always fun or momentarily benefical.

In Him-
Rain

 

[Desert Rose]

Chava:
I am not one to argue, nor to debate with others. I will always state the
beliefs of Judaism and nothing more.

One can certainly discuss without arguing...

​

BatZion:
That's true.
_____________________________________________

Amen to that, sisters! If i may add - that is exactly what i learned thru trial and error of 3 years on religious forums. The best way to learn is to just ask questions. I am not Torah observant, so if i come here its to get other peoples opinions, not proselytize into my faith or argue, thats silly and counter-productive.

TOB's in the same way can learn from us what our ways are all about. I respect Chava much for standing her grounds and not being argumentative or pushy or disrespectful for our faith.


That is probably slightly off-topic, but when analyzing Judaism,i clearly see there is something to the way of not forcing the religion on others.
As one of our guys (St Fransisc of Assisi) said: "Evangelize always, when necessary use words.." If anything can attract, its our actions, not words.
And as one of Chava's : "The best preacher is the heart; the best teacher is time."(Rabbi Tyra)

 

[BatZion]

Okay, well let me ask a question in all sincerity. Can a Jew who is say ... I dunno a Hindu, or an atheist mikvah? Or should they be allowed to is the question? I mean, technically they are still considered Jews. So is it only believing in Yeshua, or does it apply to all differing beliefs and faiths that would cause someone to be "banned" for lack of a better word.

 

[xDenax]

Okay, well let me ask a question in all sincerity. Can a Jew who is say ... I dunno a Hindu, or an atheist mikvah? Or should they be allowed to is the question? I mean, technically they are still considered Jews. So is it only believing in Yeshua, or does it apply to all differing beliefs and faiths that would cause someone to be "banned" for lack of a better word.

I think you would have to ask the people who run the particular mikveh, wouldn't you? I know here we have one run by Chabad. They only allow the Orthodox to use it, period. But we have another place that does allow the Non-Orthodox community to use their mikveh. I don't know about Messianics.

 

[xDenax]

Of course ChavaK can probably answer your question. I was only giving my opinion based on my limited knowledge and my own city.

 

[BatZion]

I think you would have to ask the people who run the particular mikveh, wouldn't you? I know here we have one run by Chabad. They only allow the Orthodox to use it, period. But we have another place that does allow the Non-Orthodox community to use their mikveh. I don't know about Messianics.

I want to know how they feel about any Jew who wants to use it who adheres to any other kind of faith other than Judaism who wants to use it out of a sense of tradition.