Michigan Anti-Evolution Bill

Kyubi-no-Youko

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Arikay said:
What about having your kids write up why the earth might not be round?

A bit off topic...but I'm sure I read somewhere the earth was shaped like an egg or a pear or...something...well, it's not perfectly round.

We should teach that as well ^^


I just love how everyone writes what I want to say before I do. I agree with Arikay and the rest. Creationsim/ID belongs in philosophy class, not science. And all stories/methods of Creationsim/ID should be taught. Let all sides have their say, I say. ^^
 
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lucaspa

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JohnR7 said:
Don't worry, there is a new government coming. Christ will rule and reign here on earth for 1000 years. We should not put to much confindence in man's attempt to establish a government.

Oh, boy, now you are a millenialist too, JohnR7? We have no idea when this is going to happen. Jesus said that even he didn't know, and his guess about the timing was way wrong. Which proves he didn't know.

JohnR7, you are enjoying the fruits of "man's attempt to establish a government" by living in the USA. Not a bad government, heh?

BTW, I suppose you don't vote, since you wouldn't want to do anything that might indicate confidence in a man-made government, would you?
 
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lucaspa

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DGB454 said:
Sorry I edited my post before yours was in. Anyway as I said, Flat earth science is easy to disprove but ID and a Creator is not.

ID is easy to disprove. A Creator as in God is not. ID and a Creator are not the same thing. As even ID says. The proponents of ID state that ID will not give you the identity of the Creator. For all IDers know, the Creator could be the aliens Rael talks about.
 
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lucaspa

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goat37 said:
I was just reading through other posts and articles and came across this one.

http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/news/2003/MI/741_proposed_legislation_requires__7_25_2003.asp

Here we go again. It is Ohio all over again.

You realize the irony meter has pegged again. When Johnson and the Discovery Institute started ID and promoted it, the first part of the agenda was to get publications in the scientific literature and a research program of ID. They specifically said they would NOT go the political route, since ID was supposedly a valid scientific theory.

Now, here we are 10 years later and no research program, but we are back to the same old creationist tactics of trying to dictate what valid theories are by law.

Also note that they are up to their old tricks of trying to hide this from the public. Stack the Education Committee and get the bill thru before the public knows what is going on. Because every time the public becomes aware of this, they defeat it.

Now that the NCSE has made people aware, I predict the bill dies in committee and never goes to the floor.
 
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Fovezer

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This bill better not pass. I live in Michigan and will be a senior this year. ID and Creationism do not belong in a class, because it is not in the least bit scientific. Evoultion is scientific. ID and Creationism belong in church.

Even more interesting is that this bill was submitted on my birthday.

Oh, and JohnR7, in a 1000 years, there hopefully will not be any more religions.
 
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lucaspa

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Arikay said:
Not to mention ID requires a creator.

Meaning that you need to find scientific Evidence for a creator, or even, how to falsify a creator.

Arikay, we do this all the time in Archeology and forensics. That is, when we identify rocks as spear and arrow tips and realize they were manufactured or created, then they require a manufacturer or creator. Or we recognize pieces of clay as fragments of pottery.

ID says that biological organisms or parts of them (the designs) were manufactured. What they are missing, of course, is that biology already HAS a creator: natural selection. It's just that the creator is not intelligent nor that organisms were manufactured off-site and placed here. Natural selection combined with chemistry and biology IS the manufacturing process.
 
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lucaspa

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Fovezer said:
This bill better not pass. I live in Michigan and will be a senior this year. ID and Creationism do not belong in a class, because it is not in the least bit scientific. Evoultion is scientific. ID and Creationism belong in church.

ID and creationism do not belong in science class as VALID theories because they are falsified scientific theories. Not because they are not scientific.

When you say something is "not in the least bit scientific" then you have to come up with criteria to say what is science and what is not. Philosophers of science have been trying to do that for over 400 years and have failed miserably. Either the criteria leave out a lot that we consider science or include a lot that we don't consider science. Sometimes both.

So forget whether an idea is "scientific" or not as a reason to keep it out of class. It doesn't work when you look at the problem rigorously. Instead, look at creationism and ID as you would look at ANY scientific theory and test them. When you do that you will quickly find that the major statements of each theory are shown to be false by the data. Therefore you can't teach ID as valid, which is what the proposed legislation says we are to do. No more than we can teach geocentrism or flat earth as valid.
 
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Fovezer

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lucaspa, that is true, even if it is "scientific", it is easily falsified, and therefore should not be taught.

Another thing that bugs me about the bill, is that it states that evolution must be taught as an "unproved theory", whereas that does not appear to be imposed on the ID and creation side.
 
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ikester7579

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Seems to me that science is a little afraid of losing ground in the schools. This is a free country the last I looked. So whats wrong with having a choice? Or has science suddenly became fact and cannot be challenged?
Science, with all it claims with it's fantastic theories. should welcome this. After all it should be easy to disprove anything else. Just come up with more theories. And more theories to back up those theories until you have a mountain of them. What is it that science is so afraid of? A God that does not exist(according to science). And if you say science never said that, then what's the problem?
 
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Arthur Dietrich

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ikester7579 said:
Seems to me that science is a little afraid of losing ground in the schools. This is a free country the last I looked. So whats wrong with having a choice? Or has science suddenly became fact and cannot be challenged?

Sure Science is fact. We couldn't teach it if it wasn't. Of course it can be challenged. But some challenges are just weak and silly. Like saying "It's not a virus! It's a demon that's making people sick!" Any challenge based on strong, backed up facts is worth making. The scientific community challenges each other. Is it because they're weak? Of course not. They just want the strongest evidence and the strongest possible answer. Challenge doesn't always equal disagreeing.

Science, with all it claims with it's fantastic theories. should welcome this. After all it should be easy to disprove anything else. Just come up with more theories. And more theories to back up those theories until you have a mountain of them.

Scientific theories don't prove or disprove anything. And sure we can have loads of theories...as long as they have facts and evidence to back them. And science doesn't make 'claims' or 'fantastic theories'...and if they are just that, they will be debunked, shipped out, and probably embraced my some cult group or something.

What is it that science is so afraid of? A God that does not exist(according to science). And if you say science never said that, then what's the problem?

Science never says a God does not exist. Nor does it say a God does exist. The problem is Creationsim/ID shouldn't be taught in a science class. Why? It's not science. I have no problem with it being taught, as long as it's taught in the right class and everyone gets their fair say...Hindu, Christian, Egyptian...everyone.
 
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Freodin

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ikester7579 said:
Seems to me that science is a little afraid of losing ground in the schools. This is a free country the last I looked. So whats wrong with having a choice? Or has science suddenly became fact and cannot be challenged?
Science, with all it claims with it's fantastic theories. should welcome this. After all it should be easy to disprove anything else. Just come up with more theories. And more theories to back up those theories until you have a mountain of them. What is it that science is so afraid of? A God that does not exist(according to science). And if you say science never said that, then what's the problem?

Science classes are there to teach young students the basics of science. It is not "pick what you like".

Would you like a law that had churches teach all the competing "facts" about all the different deities? After all, what do you have to fear?
 
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Cantuar

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Of course, ID doesn't specific who or what that creator is. It could be a Hindu god or a Pagan god or an intelligent race of alien beings or something else entirely.

It COULD be. But the capitalisation of Creator and the use of the singular means that we're dealing with a single deity. Not that we needed clues, of course.

I'd love to know which textbooks they propose using; far as I know, there aren't any textbooks that include intelligent-design creationism as part of standard biology. In this day and age of being strapped for cash, are they really going to shell out $75 (or whatever it costs) per copy to provide all the schoolkids in Michigan with a copy of "The Design Inference"?

And as far as evolution being an unproven theory, they need to explain why that makes it different from all the other theories that aren't being asked to be compared to the activities of this Creator of theirs. This simply hasn't been thought through. I hope the biology faculties at all the universities in Michigan get involved here, because these people need to realise that they can't just redefine science to suit their religious sensibilities and get away with it.

Apparently this bill was introduced once before but didn't get through. Wonder why not.
 
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Melange_Thief

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I have an idea (related to the bill, not the current discussion). Call me a blasphemer, but I think that the science teachers over there should teach creationism. Note that I didn't specify what religion. It could be the Greek, Hindu, or Egyptian, so long as it is not the "Creator" that they truly mean.
 
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Cantuar

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Seems to me that science is a little afraid of losing ground in the schools.

And so it should be. A society like this depends on having a significant proportion of its population be functionally scientifically literate. Introducing thinly veiled theology into science class while suggesting that a fundamental biological theory is somehow lacking because it's "unproven" is not the way to do that.

This is a free country the last I looked. So whats wrong with having a choice?

There's enough science out there to keep a high school curriculum busy just getting through the basics. There's no time and no advantage to introducing stuff that hasn't been part of scientific research and isn't likely to be any time soon. Schoolkids need a grounding in the scientific method and an appreciation of the basics, not a bunch of stuff that's gone no farther than popular books and message boards and is opposed on scientific grounds by just about every professional research scientist who's come across it.

Or has science suddenly became fact and cannot be challenged?

Science is a method that depends on the laws of nature to explain observed phenomena. Purposeful intelligent Creators aren't part of science; the ID people have tied their Creator too closely to overthrowing methodological naturalism for anybody to take ID seriously as real science.

Science, with all it claims with it's fantastic theories. should welcome this.

Sort of like how a turkey should be as happy about Thanksgiving as humans are? The ID movement wants to replace methodological naturalism with a new and improved science that isn't limited by the laws of nature in the same way that the scientific method is. Why would scientists be happy about their discipline being threatened by people who want to renew science and society and have been bankrolled by the Chalcedon Foundation in the process?

After all it should be easy to disprove anything else. Just come up with more theories. And more theories to back up those theories until you have a mountain of them.

The theory of evolution is as well backed up as you describe. But that hasn't stopped any of the creationist groups, has it? Their motivation isn't scientific; their motivation, for young Earthers, is to get their interpretation of the Bible taught in public schools and used as the basis for law and society in general, and, for IDists, to replace the current secular society with a post-naturalistic one. In both cases, they're attacking the scientific method because it's perceived as part of the foundation of this nasty atheistic secular society that they want to get rid of. The fact that a scientific theory is very well supported is irrelevant to them. This isn't about science as far as they're concerned.

What is it that science is so afraid of? A God that does not exist(according to science).

You know that isn't true. Do you actually read what people write here? Or do you just forget it the minute you've read it?

And if you say science never said that, then what's the problem?

The problem is that basically this isn't about science. Scientists care about science, and they don't want to see it wrecked as collateral damage by a group of people who want to create a Christian theocracy.
 
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worship4ever

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You know, a couple scientist's were in the presence of God, and they said "Look, we figured out how to create humans without you." God looking at their ignorance said, "well, by all means, go ahead, show me." So the scientist's bent down to grap some soil and God said "Hey, make your own soil" I thought it was humorous.
 
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worship4ever said:
You know, a couple scientist's were in the presence of God, and they said "Look, we figured out how to create humans without you." God looking at their ignorance said, "well, by all means, go ahead, show me." So the scientist's bent down to grap some soil and God said "Hey, make your own soil" I thought it was humorous.

ya, but it has no bearing on the current subject
 
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wblastyn

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worship4ever said:
You know, a couple scientist's were in the presence of God, and they said "Look, we figured out how to create humans without you." God looking at their ignorance said, "well, by all means, go ahead, show me." So the scientist's bent down to grap some soil and God said "Hey, make your own soil" I thought it was humorous.
Just because we know how the universe did something doesn't mean we can do it ourselves lol.
 
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Siliconaut

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@John:
Don't worry, there is a new government coming. Christ will rule and reign here on earth for 1000 years. We should not put to much confindence in man's attempt to establish a government.
Hooray! We're in non-sequitur, thread derailing land again! :)

You know about the last one who proposed a Thousand Year Reich? :D
 
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Siliconaut

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@ikester:
Seems to me that science is a little afraid of losing ground in the schools. This is a free country the last I looked. So whats wrong with having a choice? Or has science suddenly became fact and cannot be challenged?
Science, with all it claims with it's fantastic theories. should welcome this. After all it should be easy to disprove anything else. Just come up with more theories. And more theories to back up those theories until you have a mountain of them. What is it that science is so afraid of?
The problem is: ID is a falsified theory. Evolution is not. So we might as well teach the Easter Bunny in science class, according to your view.
 
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