Michael the Arch Angel

[Adventist Dissident]

here is the wiki on the dative case
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dative_case
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dative_case#The_dative_case_in_Greek

pay attention to the dative of manner. Dativus modi:

 

[tall73]

Even that very text says that it was through Jesus that God made the world. How could He not be in existence until He became a man?

 

[Pythons]

He bought the Amazing Discoveries Trinity is the wine of Babylon video.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I see no point in arguing with you about greek, you do not know it and I do. Please respond to my question and not to your understanding of the what you believe to be my skill in greek. you are not quallifed to say any thing about what a 2 year greek student can or cannot understand. Invalidation is not the tool of the open minded, it is the tool of those who use propanganda.

I have a good relationship with a retired Greek teacher from WWC now WWU would you like me to contact that person and see what her opinion is of a 2 year Greek student is in comparison to a Greek scholar.

Have you ever wondered why the Early Church Fathers many fluent in Greek did not develop the idea that Jesus is Michael the archangel?

Do you have any support for your interpretation from Bible Commentaries. It is interesting that even the book Questions on Doctrines does not try to support their Christ is Michael using 1 Thess. 4:16 When they go to commentaries it is to the verse in Revelation and then it seems they can't find support for it prior to the 1800's

On Rev. 12:7:

"Michael was the man child which the woman brought forth."—Clarke's Commentary.

"This being 'a war in the heaven,' and waged by Michael, who is Christ (whose warfare is not like that of earthly kings), and by His messengers, is an intellectual and polemical warfare."—J. D. Glasgow, Commentary on the Apocalypse (1872).

"We have shown elsewhere that the Archangel Michael is an image of Christ victoriously combatant. Christ is an Archangel in His quality of judge; and He appears as judge, not only at the end of the world, but also in the preservation of the purity of His Church."—Lange's Commentary (1874), on Rev. 12:1-12, Exegetical and Critical Synoptic View, p. 238.

" 'Michael and his angels' on one side, and 'the dragon and his angels' on the other. Christ, the great angel of the covenant, and his faithful followers; and Satan and all his instruments. This latter party would be much superior in number and outward strength to the other; but the strength of the church lies in having the Lord Jesus for the Captain of their salvation."—Matthew Henry's Commentary.

"The idea of the heavenly being who thus comes to view as a feature in old apocalyptic tradition is the source of the conception of the heavenly Messiah—the Son of Man. . . . We have already seen that the heavenly being 'like unto a son of man' of Dan. 7 was probably identified by the author . . . with Israel's angel—prince Michael; this angelic being was later, it would seem, invested with Messianic attributes, and so became the pre-existent heavenly Messiah."—Abingdon Bible Commentary, p.846.

(See also Calvin's Commentaries on "Daniel," vol. 2, pp. 253, 368, also p. 13).
http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/qod/q08.htm


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[tall73]

The fact that he is referencing the coming kingdom of Christ in chapter 2, contrasting Jesus' role in that kingdom with that of angels, does not mean the reference early in chapter 1 was only to the coming world.

The point of the passage is the supremacy of Christ which is shown BOTH in His creating the first world, and being the One whom the second is subject to (in contrast with the angels).

Here are some other texts I would like your take on in this regard:


Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
Joh 1:9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.'")
Joh 1:16 And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

I have a good relationship with a retired Greek teacher from WWC now WWU would you like me to contact that person and see what her opinion is of a 2 year Greek student is in comparison to a Greek scholar.

RC you are going to have to to better then threaten me with "experts". before I posted this I actually went and consulted with other people. If you want to talk about "experts" then I got "expets"

Let me list the people I can conslt and have access to

1. DR. Ralph Neil -Former Head of the Religon Dept at Union, Greek teacher and Member of the DARCON committee.
2. DR Beatrice Neil - Former Professor of Theology expert in Revelation and Greek teacher
3. DR. Anthony Minear - Former Professor of Theology and Greek teacher at union college
4. DR Tom Shepard - Professor of Theology at the seminary and former Greek Translation teacher at Union college
5. DR Roger Lucus Current pastor and Former Greek Teacher at Union college
6. DR. John Mcvey. Current president of Walla Walla college, Former president of the Seminary and My advisor and first greek teacher.
7. DR. Slyvester Case current professor and greek teacher at Union College
8. DR. Bill Shea, fomer Professor at the seminary and Biblical Language expert.

I keep in touch with #1,2,3 & 8 directly with e-mail #4,5 are just a phone call away. and 7 is accross the street.

So ok RC you get your experts. In fact I will email the Neils and ask them the structher of the greek today.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Go for it, of course the question was does a 2 year Greek college course make that person an expert on Greek. Why don't you add that to your letter. But if you are going to ask them the structure of the Greek in 1 Thess. 4:16 I would really be curious as to their answers, especially if any one of them said that "with" excludes the meaning of "with" as accompany or along with.

 

[sentipente]

Just remember that being an expert in Greek does not make one an expert on God.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Just remember that being an expert in Greek does not make one an expert on God.

one does not need to be an "expert" on God to be an expert on Greek. This just seem to be a way to headge onesself so one can reject what they don't like. Now an "expert" is not good enough.

 

[.chrys.]

Do any of you know any Greek experts who aren't of the Adventist faith? I'd be curious to hear those opinions on this translation as well.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Falsehood. The scriptures clearly present Jesus Christ as pre-existing His human incarnation. In fact, He Himself states as much directly, causing the Jewish leaders to seek to stone Him for blasphemy:

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
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~John 8:57-59.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Just remember that being an expert in Greek does not make one an expert on God.

Exactly. There still remains the filter of human language itself, regardless which one bes used, and the process of packing/condensing pure inspired thought and reality INTO it to be transmitted and then UNpacking/expanding those contents on the receiving end. The process itself bes fraught with difficulties of its own even in the use of the original tongue, and even moreso to attempt its use 2000 years later by those not bred and nurtured in its use and in the culture in which it has context.

This does NOT mean to suggest we should not go to the original languages -- nay, we should, and readily so! -- but just to caution that doing so, while clarifying humanspeak and meaning, does not remove every obstacle of comprehension.

 

[tall73]

If you want opinions from a number of Greek scholars, why not submit the question to the B Greek mailing list?

 

[tall73]

He tells us in the verse that he is referring to the world to come.

A verse that is a chapter away. He is referring to both in fact in different points of the letter.

Notice in the verses that it does not say He created, "THE" heaven and "THE" earth, but rather it says, "IN" heaven and "ON" earth. This is referring to the kingdom of God with Jesus as the King over all authorities.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.


It is giving the scope, heaven, earth, all included. Note that it says He created ALL THINGS.


Note what it says:

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.

Here are a few more verses for you to comment on. Jesus speaking says:

Luk 10:18 And he said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.


Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."


Joh 17:4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

 

[Man-ofGod]

One concept that I simply can not accept in that Jesus was also Michael the archangel. I believe the Bible is clear on this issue. Michael is not Jesus. Michael is in fact a chief angel. One thing I think we can all agree on here is that Jesus is God and Lord over all. When you compare the actions of Jesus to the actions of Michael you see a huge distinction.

Take Jude 1:9:

But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

However, Jesus who we know is Lord over all had no problem accusing Satan of being the "father of lies." In addition, notice how Michael calls upon the Lord to rebuke the devil.

Some people get confused with Thessalonians 4:16

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

But there is nothing to get confused about friends! The bible is clear once again. The lord himself will descend from heaving WITH the voice of the archangel and WITH the trump of God. These passages simply detail what his voice may sound like or could simply point out that an archangel is along side him during his entry.

Finally, one only has to read Hebrews chapter 1 to know that Jesus is so much more then an Angel. Angels were a creation of God and Jesus is God, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, another words he is eternal. No angel can make that claim.

 

[Pythons]

God IS The Father, The Son & The Holy Spirit. ONE Divine Substance & that renders impossible Michael the archangel being Christ because as Man-Of-God states, Michael is ONE OF OTHER PRINCES.

Ellen White clearly states that Satan was an archangel NEXT TO CHRIST, which by default gives Satan the Divine Substance of God. I've been urged to cease and desist bringing this up over at the other side of the fence because my doing so has become offensive to many.

I've reasoned that it's illogical for those who identify themselves as "Traditional" to gloat that they fully accept the fundamental beliefs of the SDA Church while claiming that those who identify themselves as Progressive do not. The way I see it, the truth of the Trinity will eventually force Orthodoxy on Seventh-day Adventism or break it up.

A person can't affirm they believe in the Trinity and affirm that Michael the archangel was christ without affirming Satan shares in the Divine Substance which would also force the person to affirm God (S) instead of God. This is a real big issue that I can now say I have first hand experience in.

Last Wed at 7:30pm I walked into an Advanced Bible Study at my local SDA Church. While I certainly didn't agree with the Pastors take on what Rev 6 meant I would certainly say he was very sharp, quick with the questions I asked him and managed to do it all with perhaps one of the best examples of humor I've ever witnessed! Three times the study was halted because of three direct challenges to the Trinity from MEMBERS of the Church.

I'm happy to say the SDA Pastor defended the Trinity from what I could tell but three well versed members of his flock did take him to task on it.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

I heard back from ralph Neil, In his opinion, it is inclusive. that is not a no or a yes.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT POST

Sorry - closing this for review.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Mod Hat post

I'm reopening this again after cleaning it up. Sme posts were removed and some of the quotes of those posts removed.

Please note this announcement

It is okay to debate whether Michael is a preincarnate name for Christ or an angel. It is not okay to debate against the Trinity.

 

[freeindeed2]

Do any of you know any Greek experts who aren't of the Adventist faith? I'd be curious to hear those opinions on this translation as well.

Almost ALL of the 'Greek experts' are not of the Adventist faith.