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Michael Knowles demands a retraction, and gets it.

ThatRobGuy

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You don't have to concede to anyone's position. Especially if it's an extreme one. And their extremism doesn't grant you any leeway to indulge in your own. It's guaranteed that you'll end up in a lose/lose situation. There are reasonable solutions to most problems. Search them out. Look for points of agreement. Point out any fallacies. Correct misinterpretations. Concede when you are wrong. Offer compromises. You doknow that this is how adults are meant to discuss things?

I've already said that this must not be considered a point scoring exercise. The comments in the op were just that. So how do you reply? By turning it into...a point scoring exercise.

In an argument with a family member at the dinner table you don't have to concede at all. When it's a power balance in politics (and concessions are inevitable in order to get the votes to shape policy), you're not left with much of a choice.

Within the context of US politics it is about "points" in a way.

If one team can get 218 points in round one and 51 points in round two, they "win".

With most votes on hot button issues, there's no "winning" without making some concessions because you need a least a few people from the other side to go with your side in order to get anything done.
 
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Bradskii

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In an argument with a family member at the dinner table you don't have to concede at all. When it's a power balance in politics (and concessions are inevitable in order to get the votes to shape policy), you're not left with much of a choice.

Within the context of US politics it is about "points" in a way.

If one team can get 218 points in round one and 51 points in round two, they "win".

With most votes on hot button issues, there's no "winning" without making some concessions because you need a least a few people from the other side to go with your side in order to get anything done.
You are treating it exactly like a point winning exercise. Except the points are votes. Do anything to win that vote! Take any extreme position! Don't give an inch!

If you want politics to be like that, then what can I say? You'll get your wish.
 
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rjs330

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Perhaps you can give us an example so we can determine that.
Did you somehow miss out on those conversations in all the other transgender threads? Particularly the ones involving Florida? There was plenty of examples provided in those threads. No need to continue to repost them over and over again especially when I'm pretty sure you were part of them.
 
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Bradskii

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Did you somehow miss out on those conversations in all the other transgender threads? Particularly the ones involving Florida? There was plenty of examples provided in those threads. No need to continue to repost them over and over again especially when I'm pretty sure you were part of them.
If there are so many I'm sure you can find a curriculum that includes transgenderism.
 
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rjs330

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If there are so many I'm sure you can find a curriculum that includes transgenderism.
Why would I do that if it's already been done and you had access to it in the threads? Since you didn't acknowledge it then why would you suddenly change your mind now?

You see I've learned from you that no matter what is shown it will have no affect on you. The next time it gets discussed you will just demand to see it again. So what's the point?

Assigning busy work? Wasting my time?

You leftists are famous for doing that. Demand the same thing over and over again no matter how often it's shown to you.

Prove there is an apple
Heres an apple
Prove there is an apple
Here's an apple
Prove there is an apple
Here's an apple
Prove there is apple infinitum.
 
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GreatLakes4Ever

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Why would I do that if it's already been done and you had access to it in the threads? Since you didn't acknowledge it then why would you suddenly change your mind now?

You see I've learned from you that no matter what is shown it will have no affect on you. The next time it gets discussed you will just demand to see it again. So what's the point?

I don’t think there is any evidence. If you had something you wouldn’t be able to wait to show us. Instead we get you slamming the open mindedness of @Bradskii.
 
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Bradskii

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Why would I do that if it's already been done and you had access to it in the threads?
I saw no school curriculums that included instructions on transgenderism. Again, point one out please.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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You are treating it exactly like a point winning exercise. Except the points are votes. Do anything to win that vote! Take any extreme position! Don't give an inch!

If you want politics to be like that, then what can I say? You'll get your wish.
Politics in the US has already been that way for 20+ years.

And it's been something of a "negotiating exercise" (much like one would negotiate price at a car dealership) for much longer than that.

When you look back at the original framing of the country, that was kind of the original intent.

Some quotes from the founders:
both sides must part with some of their demands in order that they may join in some accommodating proposition.”

"neither side should entirely yield to the other, and consequently that the struggle could be terminated only by compromise."

"compromise between the parties causes intrinsic merit"



In fact, one could make a well reasoned argument that the way our legislative branch is structured (See: Connecticut Compromise) is an example of two polar opposite sides ideological viewpoints making some concessions to meet in the middle. With one side wanting all of the legislature to be based on state population sizes (which the big states would've loved), and the other wanting all states to the have the same numbers regardless of if they had 1,000 residents or 100,000.

Starting the negotiation from a position of already conceding 80% of what you want is hardly an effective negotiation approach and our system of government would look very different if either of those two factions had conceded most of what they wanted prior to negotiating.

Let's say we were talking about minimum wage.

There are some on the GOP side that want to get rid of it entirely. There are some on the Democratic side that want it doubled from where it currently is. Would it make much sense for the Democrats to sit down at the negotiating table with $9/hour as a starting point? Or would it be better for them to go into it with a demand of $20, in hopes that after the haggling process, it's still somewhere much higher than the $7.25 its at today?
 
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Bradskii

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Would it make much sense for the Democrats to sit down at the negotiating table with $9/hour as a starting point? Or would it be better for them to go into it with a demand of $20, in hopes that after the haggling process, it's still somewhere much higher than the $7.25 its at today?
If the argument was about wages, you might have a point. It ain't. So you don't. Extreme positions are for extremists.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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If the argument was about wages, you might have a point. It ain't. So you don't. Extreme positions are for extremists.
Are you applying that position to both sides of the debate?

Many people feel that allowing 6' 3" large-frame males to compete against females, puberty blockers and hormone supplementation for people who are 14-15, and having public readings of "The Dragtivity Book" (and doing the exercises outlined in said book) for 10 year olds would be considered "extreme".

If one side starts doing an "extreme thing" first, I don't think it's fair to put the onus completely on the other side to be "civil and nuanced" in their response to it (especially when doing so is all but a guarantee that the other side's "extreme thing" will be able to continue and advance with impunity")

Doing so is basically asking one side to "throw the game" on purpose so that the side you're more closely aligned with can get what they want.
 
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rjs330

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I don’t think there is any evidence. If you had something you wouldn’t be able to wait to show us. Instead we get you slamming the open mindedness of @Bradskii.
Prove there is an apple.
Here is an apple
Prove there is an apple.
 
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rjs330

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rjs330

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Politics in the US has already been that way for 20+ years.

And it's been something of a "negotiating exercise" (much like one would negotiate price at a car dealership) for much longer than that.

When you look back at the original framing of the country, that was kind of the original intent.

Some quotes from the founders:
both sides must part with some of their demands in order that they may join in some accommodating proposition.”

"neither side should entirely yield to the other, and consequently that the struggle could be terminated only by compromise."

"compromise between the parties causes intrinsic merit"



In fact, one could make a well reasoned argument that the way our legislative branch is structured (See: Connecticut Compromise) is an example of two polar opposite sides ideological viewpoints making some concessions to meet in the middle. With one side wanting all of the legislature to be based on state population sizes (which the big states would've loved), and the other wanting all states to the have the same numbers regardless of if they had 1,000 residents or 100,000.

Starting the negotiation from a position of already conceding 80% of what you want is hardly an effective negotiation approach and our system of government would look very different if either of those two factions had conceded most of what they wanted prior to negotiating.

Let's say we were talking about minimum wage.

There are some on the GOP side that want to get rid of it entirely. There are some on the Democratic side that want it doubled from where it currently is. Would it make much sense for the Democrats to sit down at the negotiating table with $9/hour as a starting point? Or would it be better for them to go into it with a demand of $20, in hopes that after the haggling process, it's still somewhere much higher than the $7.25 its at today?
I think there is room for compromise on some things and I have no problem with doing so. Lets look at several things.

Bathrooms- You must use the bathroom of your sex. Unless you look like the opposite sex and we can't tell the difference. We honestly don't want a dude that looks just like a woman in the men's restroom and don't want a dude who looks like a dude in the women's restroom. If you are woman, but you look.like a man, feel free to use the men's restroom instead of the woman's room. That's not foing to bother anyone. This allows for transgenders to use the bathroom they wish if they present as the sex they feel like they are.

Locker rooms- You must use the locker room of your sex unless you have undergone the surgery that transforms you to look like and have the parts of the sex you want to be. In other words no penises in the women's locker rooms and no breasts and vaginas in the men's locker rooms. This allows transgenders to use and undress in the locker room of the sex they feel they are. It's a commitment I know.

Women's sports- A transgender woman may participate in women's sports if they have the hormones of the average woman, the muscle mass of the average woman and the bone mass of the average woman. They took must undergo surgery to transform them into the bodily structure of a woman.
This puts equality/equity back into the sport. It allows biological women to have an equal playing field against a biological man.

Education- I am afraid the only compromise I am willing to do is to allow 12 year olds and older to be educated on the fact what transgenderism is and that it is a mental health issue and not a biological reality. This of course would go along with very strong anti-bullying message that we do not bully or make fun of or physically assault anyone who presents as different as you. We have to have compassion on those that are struggling with any and all mental health issues.

I am not going to budge on teaching any LGBTQ information to any children younger than that. The kids in the this country somehow got by for the last couple of hundred years without that knowledge and information and did just fine. There is no need for it at the younger ages.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I don’t think there is any evidence. If you had something you wouldn’t be able to wait to show us. Instead we get you slamming the open mindedness of @Bradskii.
If there are so many I'm sure you can find a curriculum that includes transgenderism.

"Now, early childhood is 0 to 8 years old, so that's kind of like from preschool to third grade… And the focus… of this workshop is to provide you with positive strategies to support transgender and gender non-conforming children," McCray said."


There you go....took all of 5 seconds to get an example. One of many examples I might add. @rjs330 is obviously right, and when evidence of something is this abundant, it's baffling to see any request for evidence. It inherently looks dishonest, disingenuous, and bad faith. You're literally holding a phone or using a computer with a search engine....and all you have to do is type in a search for children being taught sexual orientation, gender, transgenderism, and the like to get a phone book of results.


This is a bit like CRT when even after we had school administrators openly talking about their commitment to teaching CRT, people somehow wanted literal examples of homework with the words CRT on it. There's an inherently dishonest goalposts shifting that occurs when certain people make requests for evidence yet deny the evidence that they requested.

At this point, it's been proven fact to you. Any further requests for evidence should be treated as dishonest.
 
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rjs330

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"Now, early childhood is 0 to 8 years old, so that's kind of like from preschool to third grade… And the focus… of this workshop is to provide you with positive strategies to support transgender and gender non-conforming children," McCray said."


There you go....took all of 5 seconds to get an example. One of many examples I might add. @rjs330 is obviously right, and when evidence of something is this abundant, it's baffling to see any request for evidence. It inherently looks dishonest, disingenuous, and bad faith. You're literally holding a phone or using a computer with a search engine....and all you have to do is type in a search for children being taught sexual orientation, gender, transgenderism, and the like to get a phone book of results.


This is a bit like CRT when even after we had school administrators openly talking about their commitment to teaching CRT, people somehow wanted literal examples of homework with the words CRT on it. There's an inherently dishonest goalposts shifting that occurs when certain people make requests for evidence yet deny the evidence that they requested.

At this point, it's been proven fact to you. Any further requests for evidence should be treated as dishonest.
I agree. This has gone beyond absurd at this point to make any claim gender ideology isn't being taught in schools.
 
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GreatLakes4Ever

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I think there is room for compromise on some things and I have no problem with doing so. Lets look at several things.

Bathrooms- You must use the bathroom of your sex. Unless you look like the opposite sex and we can't tell the difference. We honestly don't want a dude that looks just like a woman in the men's restroom and don't want a dude who looks like a dude in the women's restroom. If you are woman, but you look.like a man, feel free to use the men's restroom instead of the woman's room. That's not foing to bother anyone. This allows for transgenders to use the bathroom they wish if they present as the sex they feel like they are.

Locker rooms- You must use the locker room of your sex unless you have undergone the surgery that transforms you to look like and have the parts of the sex you want to be. In other words no penises in the women's locker rooms and no breasts and vaginas in the men's locker rooms. This allows transgenders to use and undress in the locker room of the sex they feel they are. It's a commitment I know.

Women's sports- A transgender woman may participate in women's sports if they have the hormones of the average woman, the muscle mass of the average woman and the bone mass of the average woman. They took must undergo surgery to transform them into the bodily structure of a woman.
This puts equality/equity back into the sport. It allows biological women to have an equal playing field against a biological man.

Education- I am afraid the only compromise I am willing to do is to allow 12 year olds and older to be educated on the fact what transgenderism is and that it is a mental health issue and not a biological reality. This of course would go along with very strong anti-bullying message that we do not bully or make fun of or physically assault anyone who presents as different as you. We have to have compassion on those that are struggling with any and all mental health issues.

I am not going to budge on teaching any LGBTQ information to any children younger than that. The kids in the this country somehow got by for the last couple of hundred years without that knowledge and information and did just fine. There is no need for it at the younger ages.

Bathrooms - who is “we” making the determination of who looks enough like a male to enter the men’s room and who looks enough like female to enter a women’s room. What happens to people who are in the process of transitioning and are in the uncanny valley that the “we” thinks they aren’t enough for either? What is the recluse against the “we” if they actually make the wrong determination? As in what if ”we” determine someone born a female that has never even thought of transitioning to male doesn’t look like she belongs in a female room?

Locker rooms - same question as the bathrooms apply, what happens to people who are in the uncanny valley or what if the “we” make the absolutely wrong determination? Now if someone gets naked that is very unlikely but not everyone who goes into the locker room will necessarily get naked for a variety of legitimate reasons.

Women’s sports needs more studying on the best practices for inter grating transgendered athletes but this a lot more overblown than people make it to be. There is such a low number of transgender athletes, the ones that do exist rarely are good enough to affect anything significant.

Education - what is magical about the age of 12? Why then and not before. It would behoove children to learn this stuff before puberty and 12 is too late for a lot of children. I don’t understand what you get from keeping information from children. Unless you are planning on them dying in the near term future, they are going to find out. LGBTQ people exist in the world, that is a fact. Lying actually hurts children by giving them a false notion about how the world works. What are you actively trying to harm children? Will the anti-bully campaign and having compassion include teaching children not to use dehumanizing language about them like calling them monsters?

In the end this won’t matter because your side is going to lose. Transgender people do exist, they are not mentally ill, it is a biological reality. That hs been proven to you enough times that I am no longer going to entertain your delusions that it isn’t real any more than dishonest badgering. Transgender are not going back into the closet, and society is going to accept them into it with open arms. The Zoomers aren’t going to take transphobia kindly, too many of them are openly transgender. They aren’t going to accept you making life difficult for their peers.

Have your hysterical ravings, in the end your choices are to lose or commit genocide. And committing genocide is going to ensure you get to sit next to Nazis in the annals of history. Choose wisely.
 
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Bradskii

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Okay, one last time. I can't wait for you to find a way to deny this one.


What's to deny? That's part of an item that discusses changes at puberty and how it generally aligns ones gender with ones sex. Which seems entirely appropriate for kids about to experience it. It's not specifically about transgenderism in any way and there's only a couple of sentence that mention that some people take medical advice as a means to align the changes to their gender. Which it neither promotes nor rejects.

Seeing that you can't grasp that sex and gender are two different things, this must be a complete mystery to you.
 
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Bradskii

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Education - what is magical about the age of 12? Why then and not before. It would behoove children to learn this stuff before puberty and 12 is too late for a lot of children.
All excellent points. But the age problem is something I want to mention briefly again.

Nobody is going to deny that sex and gender, which would include aspects of being transgender, are being taught in schools. I fully support that. Appropriate to the age and as far as I am concerned, if it's age appropriate, there effectively is no age limit. There would be no point in discussing matters which wouldn't make sense at a particular age but no questions are off limits.

I specifically asked for an example of a curriculum item earlier because I'm up to the back teeth of generic rants and it's-oh-all-so-terrible, won't-someone-please-think-of-the-children comments. So at the third or fourth time of asking @rjs330 supplied one. I guess it was the worst example he could find as he had plenty of time to look. And what was it? Part of a curriculum that discussed puberty. And in passing happened to mention, in 2 short sentences, that gender didn't necessarily align with sex.

That was a simple explanation of what happens to most people. And an explanation that sometimes medical help is needed to correct that. And that was what everyone is getting excited about?
 
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