methodist baptisms

[savvy]

So what is the deal with baptizing in the Methodist church? Aren't there infant baptisms? Is this the only one they receive or are they rebaptized once they've reached an age of accountablility?
Just wondering

 

[wvmtnkid]

Hi savvy!

Yes, we do infant baptisms. We also believe in only one baptism, so if you are baptized as an infant, you do not have to be baptized again. You don't have to be baptised as an infant, you can do it an any age. We have what we call confirmation where a preparatory member (generally our six graders) are confirmed and make the decision themselves to accept Jesus into their heart and make that decision known publically to their congregation and anyone else they have invited to be a part of the ceremony. If they have already been baptized, they are asked to remember their baptism when they take their vows or they can be baptized at this time. But really there is no age limit on baptism. Not to long ago, we had an 85 year old gentleman that was baptized in our church.

 

[herev]

So what is the deal with baptizing in the Methodist church? Aren't there infant baptisms? Is this the only one they receive or are they rebaptized once they've reached an age of accountablility?
Just wondering

basically as to the re-baptizing thing, we methodist believe that baptism is a sacrament--something that God does through the officiating pastor. To suggest that someone needed to be baptized again would imply that God didn't quite do it right the first time.

 

[savvy]

Well, it just seems like an infant wouldn't understand the nature of baptism and therefore it wouldn't be meaningful for them to be baptised...

 

[Plan 9]

Well, it just seems like an infant wouldn't understand the nature of baptism and therefore it wouldn't be meaningful for them to be baptised...

The way a UMC minister explained it to me, albeit in more depth, is that the sacrament of baptism is viewed by United Methodists as God's promise to us, whereas Baptists view it as our promise to God.

Is this at all helpful, savvy?

 

[WesleyJohn]

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[Plan 9]

When I was a baby, I didn't understand what it meant to take oxygen into my lungs to be absorbed into my bloodstream. But that didn't make breathing any less meaningful to me.

Plan9 has a good explanation. Baptism is a sacrament, which means it is about what God is doing/has done for us, not about what we are doing or did. Holy Communion is not about my getting up and coming to receive, it's about God calling me to come receive what He has done for me.

Infant Baptism is about God's Prevenient Grace (see my sermon on the Nazarene Article of Faith http://christianforums.com/t724064). Prevenient Grace is that grace of God which goes before. The fact that you are aware of sin, the fact that you are able to have faith, the fact that you are able to repent are all evidences of God's Prevenient Grace at work in your life.

Sacraments are the ordinary (not only) means by which God's Grace is mediated to us...prevenient, justifying, sanctifying, and sustaining grace...and so we understand infant baptism to be a mediation of God's prevenient grace.

That is, at least, one Nazarene's perspective. It may or may not be entirely in harmony with the teaching of my Methodist brethren.

Grace and Peace,

WJ

WJ, I'm not expert, but this is almost exactly what my UMC minister friend told me, she had her M.Div, was one of the most highly intelligent people I've ever met, loved Wesleyian theology for its own sake, (if you know what I mean by that) and was especially good at teaching because she was not only clear but excited about her subject. . They also found Wesley's life a fascinating one, and told me an amazing story which I wish I remembered better.
They were trying to groom her for D.S. and on up, and offered to pay for her doctorate, and she said, just like you, that the same was true of the sacrament of Holy Communion; that this difference in outlook applies to both.
I think if I hadn't heard of some truly huge changes in UM theology in the time since I last talked to her about this, you would have, through the grapevine, so to speak. So, I don't see how anything you've posted could be anything but in harmony with UMC teachings.
My friend did tell me that a number of UMC ministers were willing to rebaptize a UMCer, if they truly desired it, but that it was done in private, and not much was said about it. Her theory was that this is a leftover from when Methodist circuit riders would minister to a combined Methodist and Baptist frontier congregation, and what history I've been able to get ahold of shows that to be a reasonable theory.
I can tell you of one case in which Christians of various denominations can hardly wait to be rebaptised, and that's because I've seen it for myself: when they have an opportunity to be baptized in the River Jordan in Israel.

 

[savvy]

I've never heard of Prevenient Grace before. Okay...so you're saying what? By doing baptisms on infants, you're having God grace them so that they will have salvation in the future? Or am I really misinterpreting?
I'm considering attending a methodist church, and I just thought I'd figure out what some of the basic beliefs mean. I've gone occasionally to baptist churches so I guess some of the ideas have rubbed off on me...
well, at least you don't baptize b/c you think children go to Hell if you don't. That view freaks me out.

 

[herev]

When I was a baby, I didn't understand what it meant to take oxygen into my lungs to be absorbed into my bloodstream. But that didn't make breathing any less meaningful to me.

Plan9 has a good explanation. Baptism is a sacrament, which means it is about what God is doing/has done for us, not about what we are doing or did. Holy Communion is not about my getting up and coming to receive, it's about God calling me to come receive what He has done for me.

Infant Baptism is about God's Prevenient Grace (see my sermon on the Nazarene Article of Faith http://christianforums.com/t724064). Prevenient Grace is that grace of God which goes before. The fact that you are aware of sin, the fact that you are able to have faith, the fact that you are able to repent are all evidences of God's Prevenient Grace at work in your life.

Sacraments are the ordinary (not only) means by which God's Grace is mediated to us...prevenient, justifying, sanctifying, and sustaining grace...and so we understand infant baptism to be a mediation of God's prevenient grace.

That is, at least, one Nazarene's perspective. It may or may not be entirely in harmony with the teaching of my Methodist brethren.

Grace and Peace,

WJ

sounded right on to this methodist brother, but I've never taught sustaining grace, could you elaborate?

 

[herev]

I've never heard of Prevenient Grace before. Okay...so you're saying what? By doing baptisms on infants, you're having God grace them so that they will have salvation in the future? Or am I really misinterpreting?
I'm considering attending a methodist church, and I just thought I'd figure out what some of the basic beliefs mean. I've gone occasionally to baptist churches so I guess some of the ideas have rubbed off on me...
well, at least you don't baptize b/c you think children go to Hell if you don't. That view freaks me out.

Prevenient Grace is that which draws you to God. It literaly means the grace that goes before. It means that you would never have received Christ as your savior had he not been laying the groundword for that event--he has been seeking you out. Baptism for infants in our denomination is an outward sign of an inward event, even in infants--it is the recognition that this child is a part of the family of God, but membership in the church as well as salvation come when they accept for themselves the grace that is offered them. We do not believe that a child who has not been baptized would go to hell, the event is a special sacrament--something that God is doing, but the child may grow up to not recieve Him or to even reject him. When you receive Christ for yourself, you can make a profession of faith--required for membership--where you confess your belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior of you life. If I can help more, let me know.
Tommy

 

[WesleyJohn]

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[WesleyJohn]

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[Plan 9]

Ummm....Sustaining grace--grace and strength for each new day. It is God's grace which sustains us.

I don't know that it's great accurate theological language... I mean in some sense we recognize that we're not segmenting God's grace into Prevenient, Justifying, and Sanctifying, as though there are three different types of grace...

I merely say that it is God's grace which sustains us -- leads us, gives us strength, etc. And so, I might call that sustaining grace...

And then, from a sacramental viewpoint, the Sacrament of the Table may (for some who come) mediate sustaining grace (for others, it may mediate justifying or sanctifying (or yes, even prevenient)...but for the saved, sanctified, 90 year old saint...what grace do they receive at the Table? Sustaining.

Does that make any sense? It's certainly not as concrete as the other three...

Grace and Peace,

WJ

It makes perfect sense to me, and I can't convey how very much I long to take communion again.

 

[BjBarnett]

im not Methodist but Catholics know a thing or two about infant baptism as well this might help you understand why infant baptism is done savvy.

[bible]Colossians 2:11-12[/bible]

In those verses Paul says that circumcision has been replaced with Baptism. If we were not to Baptise infants Paul would of surely made a different comparison since circumcision usually took place as an infant.

I hope that helps you Savvy. I know it helped me when understanding why Infant Baptism was done. Once I seen it took the place of circumcision I understood more.

(if the Methodist do not agree with my above post just tell me and ill edit it )

 

[WesleyJohn]

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[Islander]

BJBarnett already said what I was going to say, thank you Barnett, but I would add that baptism is a dedication of the child and a promise by the parents to raise the child to serve the Lord (Malachi 2:15). In the Bible baptism replaced circumcision which was done on the eigth day and when a man would accept Christ he would get baptized and immediately baptize his family. Although being baptized doen't gaurantee salvation or not being baptized stop people from being saved in Luke 7:28-9 it indicates baptism did have an effect helping some to accept Christ's message.

Although do agree with Barnett's post, Calvinists (Presbyterians and Reformed Church) put much more emphasis on this than Methodists do. Although Methodists don't disagree with Calvinists on this issue, Calvinists put more emphasis than Methodists that we are in a covenant relationship with God. A covenant was a very big deal in Bible times and following the regulations of the covenant such as baptism are very important.

 

[herev]

Ummm....Sustaining grace--grace and strength for each new day. It is God's grace which sustains us.

I don't know that it's great accurate theological language... I mean in some sense we recognize that we're not segmenting God's grace into Prevenient, Justifying, and Sanctifying, as though there are three different types of grace...

I merely say that it is God's grace which sustains us -- leads us, gives us strength, etc. And so, I might call that sustaining grace...

And then, from a sacramental viewpoint, the Sacrament of the Table may (for some who come) mediate sustaining grace (for others, it may mediate justifying or sanctifying (or yes, even prevenient)...but for the saved, sanctified, 90 year old saint...what grace do they receive at the Table? Sustaining.

Does that make any sense? It's certainly not as concrete as the other three...

Grace and Peace,

WJ

makes good sense--thanks
tommy

 

[HeatherJay]

Not to derail the topic, but it just occurred to me to ask, how do your respective churches (Methodist, Nazarene) feel about reaffirmation? If I remember correctly in the UMC, reaffirmation could be done through prayer, coming to the altar, etc. But, at my church now, we do reaffirmations either with prayer or with water, if it's requested. It's actually something I've considered myself. That was something a little new to me when I came from the UMC to this church and maybe someone could elaborate on it a bit.

 

[overnight]

We had a reafrimation at our church not that long ago too. I think as long as it is clear that you are not being baptised or rebiptised that it is a good idea. It really was a moving experiance and one of the best services I have ever been to.

 

[Ave Maria]

Which Methodists are you talking about? Free Methodists, United Methodists, or some other Methodist denomination that I'm not aware of? I'm pretty sure that the United Methodists allow baptism in all modes (sprinkling, pouring, or immersion). I'm not sure about the infant baptism thing though.