Metal..

[Fiskare]

I was referring primarily to thair fan base.

Shouldn't judge a band by the fans, although, I haven't any acquiantances that listen to both Limp and AE.

Yeah, right. Metal is a music genre, and thus can be defined. If you no longer play music that fits that definition, you are no longer metal.

If you changed your style, yes, but if you didn't.....think about it. If a traditional metal band like Iced Earth change their sound to accomodate "nu-metal" or "death/grind/whatever" metal, because it was more modern, than wouldn't that be selling out? Hence, bands like UFO, BOC, and whoever, don't change their style to accomodate the new sounds, and I like that.

Not necessarily. Led Zeppelin had certain elements of metal in their songs that developed into metal as we know it today. If you want to say every band that they ever influenced is metal, then there would be no such thing as rock music, it would all be metal..

I'm not saying that, but I do think most rock is influenced by metal and vice versa.

Heh. You are not necessarily the clueless one, the guy who claimed that extreme metal is not metal is..

Well, that wouldn't be me. I like extreme too much.

"Dark" imagery =/= metal. Distortion =/= metal. You can find both in abundance in Industrial music.. is that metal? Hell, is mallcore?

It's influenced by metal.

Heh. So you think the band is "intellectual" and "darkly poetic" and this makes them metal? Screw that.

It's part of it, but that wasn't my point at all. That, combined with the sound, the energy, made a package that actually defined metal. The newbie bands merely continue this tradition, altering the sound to suit their era! It's highly commendable too!

Reviews mean nothing. You know how many hundred reviews I could pull up that claim Limp Bizkit play metal?

Let me be the judge of the bands I like, and no, I despise LB. If reviewers think LB play metal I won't dispute it, because millions might agree, and because there is no litmus test for this kind of thing.... I would say they are really subgeneric though, and you and I both know the crowd at their shows would find no Maiden Tees. This is the point- I have a broad definition because our entire society has and shares this definition. LB are not pure in their "metal" sound, that's for sure, but then again, by a purist definition, neither are any of the bands you like- they're all subgeneric on the extreme grind side of things. Personally, I wouldn't say that.

And yes, they are influential. So? Finntroll are influenced by Polka. Does this mean that Polka is a subgenre of metal? I think not.

No, it means Finntroll are eclectic.

Bloody hell. I like most of those bands. I listen to Classical, for God's sake.. "heavy" does not even enter into the equation for whether I listen something or not. Considering that metal was at its most popular in the early 80s, I could hardly "only know what is new".. since it's so much easier to find old stuff anyway, most of the time. And of course classic rock/hard rock can be found just about anywhere, even the 50 year old stuff..

Then broaden your definition, because it's rather silly to say that the 70's-80's sound is "not metal". That would imply that "metal" didn't start with the actual metal bands, but with the third or fourth generation sound of grindcore and death metal bands. Awful!

 

[StandForTruth]

Shouldn't judge a band by the fans, although, I haven't any acquiantances that listen to both Limp and AE.

Perhaps. But my point is that, yes, they are a commercial band. You can like them or not as you wish, but saying Arch Enemy did not sell out is a bit like saying "Black is white" or "God does not exist."

If you changed your style, yes, but if you didn't.....think about it. If a traditional metal band like Iced Earth change their sound to accomodate "nu-metal" or "death/grind/whatever" metal, because it was more modern, than wouldn't that be selling out?

No, it would be progression. Except in the case of "nu metal" which is a misnomber and not a subgenre of metal..

Selling out is when you change your sound specifically to make more money. Which is the only reason I can see for excellent musicians like Metallica or the guys from Hypocrisy to be playing simplistic mallcore garbage..

Hence, bands like UFO, BOC, and whoever, don't change their style to accomodate the new sounds, and I like that.

Okay. They can keep playing rock as long as they want. Fine with me. I just won't call it metal, because it isn't..

And, eh, acronyms are of Satan. Who are "UFO"?

I'm not saying that, but I do think most rock is influenced by metal and vice versa.

Very early on, yes. The two genres have grown apart, though.

Well, that wouldn't be me. I like extreme too much.

..you like it, so it's metal.. excuse me?

It's influenced by metal.

EXACTLY. Just like Blue Oyster Cult and whoever else.

It's part of it, but that wasn't my point at all. That, combined with the sound, the energy, made a package that actually defined metal. The newbie bands merely continue this tradition, altering the sound to suit their era! It's highly commendable too!

Heh. The sound? They don't sound like metal. They sound like rock, perhaps with some metal influence but rock all the same.

Let me be the judge of the bands I like, and no, I despise LB. If reviewers think LB play metal I won't dispute it, because millions might agree, and because there is no litmus test for this kind of thing.... I would say they are really subgeneric though, and you and I both know the crowd at their shows would find no Maiden Tees. This is the point- I have a broad definition because our entire society has and shares this definition. LB are not pure in their "metal" sound, that's for sure, but then again, by a purist definition, neither are any of the bands you like- they're all subgeneric on the extreme grind side of things. Personally, I wouldn't say that.

You missed my point entirely. Limp Bizkit are about as non-metal as it gets. The only thing they have in common with metal is that they are loud and use the same instruments.

..just as is the case to a significantly lesser degree with the bands you keep going on about.

No, it means Finntroll are eclectic.

Just like rock that has been influenced by metal is not necessarily metal. Good, good.

Then broaden your definition, because it's rather silly to say that the 70's-80's sound is "not metal". That would imply that "metal" didn't start with the actual metal bands, but with the third or fourth generation sound of grindcore and death metal bands. Awful!

When did I ever in my life say that metal didn't start in the late 70s/early 80s? I am saying you are confusing hard rock from that era with metal..

Led Zeppelin had some elements of metal in their sound. Black Sabbath were pretty much the first "pure metal" band. It progressed from there..

By the way.. Possessed are generally considered the first death metal band and they released their demo in '84. Fourth generation? I think not.

Grindcore is not metal, either, in it's pure form it is closer to the punk it evolved from.. though the genre pretty much started with Napalm Death who formed in 1982. Once again, it has been around longer then you seem to think.

 

[TheThinman]

OK...cool......let's see...


I might suggest checking out the names mentioned in this thread and other sources in the Amazon site, where they have little samples from the albums available for sale, as well as reviews from fans and foes alike.


Well, they are about to release their 12th album. It sounds pretty good but it is not like they were in the first four or five albums, with more of a tendency to be diverse.


Well, we know their demise. Great weren't they?


You've mentioned some excellent names there. I'm sure there is plenty around and available for sample from the site I mentioned above. Not to mention, there's a huge, big, beautiful backlog of old metal that needs to be savoured for a complete metallic life-experience.

The real hard question that stops me from offering suggestions is that I don't know what your position is on secular music. I will not offer recommend secular bands to someone who does not like it, but sadly, the Christian metal scene has lagged behind since the mid-90's but is about to have a massive revival.

I did not know that you could hear samples on Amazon. That solves about half my problems.

Mortifications best album in my opinion was Scrolls...It happened to be the first Christian metal I ever heard. That album is the reason I started to listen to metal again. However, I kind of gave up on them when they started their "tribute to '80s metal" phase. Pretty much the same with Crimson Thorn.

Vengeance, yeah they WERE great *sigh*

Secular metal? As long as they do not talk about Christianity I would give it a spin in my stereo. I dont need unbelievers to preach to me. I can stomach just about any other content in lyrics.

Christian metal lagging since the mid '90s? This is where my naivety comes up for sure, but since I started to listen (mid '90s ) There has always been at least a couple talented CMB's to keep me satisfied, and if not I always had the old albums to keep me occupied.
Massive revival? I could not agree more. I hear about alot of these new bands with just kids, and there is so much potential, and not only potential, some of these guys are bonafide powerhouses.

Thanks Fiskare, means alot to me.

 

[TheThinman]

No worries. I doubt I could name more then about 20 unless you want to go into sort-of-Christian secular bands.



I posted a decent list on page one that incorporates most of the larger subgenres.. should be a good start.

Download Demilich's brilliant Nespithe here, too. Not technically legal, I suppose, but Necropolis are refusing to pay them royalties on the reissue of the album..

Yeah, sort-of-Christian bands are a dime a dozen. But I dont worry about that. I find that Godly lyrics, wether coming pretenders or luke warmers are still Godly lyrics.

Now that I know I can sample music on Amazon, I will check out your list.

I am listening to Demilich as I write. Reminds me very much of the old stuff I use to listen to before I discovered CM. Carcass comes to mind, even the names of the songs remind me of them. I really like it, so when I say "old stuff" I dont mean "Mold stuff", and it has been maybe 15 yrs since Ive heard Carcass, so my comparison very well could be way off. Im getting a kick out of them stiffing the label for stiffing them though. Good stuff.

Worlds of thanks, StandForTruth!!!

 

[TheThinman]

Okay you guys. StandForTruth I dont know how old you are but I know Fiskare is old enough to remember.

Mosh pits, what happened? Back in the '80s there use to be a sort of organized chaos in the pit. It was pretty much where folks went in a circular motion around what we use to call the eye of the storm. A sort of neutral area in the middle. You would mosh with the flow, flailing, throwing elbows and kicking violently but never with intent to kill anyone,(although much damage was inflicted anyways) and if you fell down, the chap behind you would pick you up.
Now, these kids do not have a clue. They want to push and shove back and forth so as to squish everyone in the front that wants to watch the band. There is no circle, in fact it resembles what you might imagine what water molocules do when they are heated to a boil, bouncing off each other going any which way. And in the old days, trouble makers quickly were diposed of at any show I attended. Now you would have to take on 75% of the guys on the floor. And this is at Christian shows!
Anyways, I do not go to many shows anymore now that I have a wife and kids, and when I do, I rarely mosh. But If I want to mosh, I find it to be very frustrating. I lose my temper and start throwing kids around. I dont want to fight, I want to have fun, but what can I do when some guy I just know is intentionally trying to play tough guy on my face. I also find it very disturbing that these young ladies feel the need to "crowd surf" and let these guys paw and molest them. Very distracting. OH Dont Get me started! LOL.

So, am I just a hoity toity party pooper, or does anyone here rember "the good old days"?

 

[StandForTruth]

Moshing is generally fairly controlled, at least at the metal shows I go to.. though of course there are exceptions. Like when I saw Kreator. For a such relatively small audience (small audience at Kreator, wha.. ), it was extremely violent. Was a long way back home and didn't really want to get hurt, so I had to abstain..

And even at that show, it didn't look like people were trying to kill each other even.

..dunno. Maybe I just go to the wrong (right?) shows.

 

[TheThinman]

Moshing is generally fairly controlled, at least at the metal shows I go to.. though of course there are exceptions. Like when I saw Kreator. For a such relatively small audience (small audience at Kreator, wha.. ), it was extremely violent. Was a long way back home and didn't really want to get hurt, so I had to abstain..

And even at that show, it didn't look like people were trying to kill each other even.

..dunno. Maybe I just go to the wrong (right?) shows.

My guess is that it could be geological mostly. Im from Portland but I went to most of my Metal Shows in Indiana, and Ohio when all of my roomates where in a Hardcore band, so I was the live in roadie. But since Ive come back home, I have yet to see a decent mosh pit. Unfortunately my hometown cant mosh. LOL

Hey I really dig that Demilich stuff man.

 

[StandForTruth]

My guess is that it could be geological mostly. Im from Portland but I went to most of my Metal Shows in Indiana, and Ohio when all of my roomates where in a Hardcore band, so I was the live in roadie. But since Ive come back home, I have yet to see a decent mosh pit. Unfortunately my hometown cant mosh. LOL

Entirely possible. No way to easily know, I guess.

Hey I really dig that Demilich stuff man.

Yar, they own.

 

[Fiskare]

Okay you guys. StandForTruth I dont know how old you are but I know Fiskare is old enough to remember.

Mosh pits, what happened? Back in the '80s there use to be a sort of organized chaos in the pit. It was pretty much where folks went in a circular motion around what we use to call the eye of the storm. A sort of neutral area in the middle. You would mosh with the flow, flailing, throwing elbows and kicking violently but never with intent to kill anyone,(although much damage was inflicted anyways) and if you fell down, the chap behind you would pick you up.
Now, these kids do not have a clue. They want to push and shove back and forth so as to squish everyone in the front that wants to watch the band. There is no circle, in fact it resembles what you might imagine what water molocules do when they are heated to a boil, bouncing off each other going any which way. And in the old days, trouble makers quickly were diposed of at any show I attended. Now you would have to take on 75% of the guys on the floor. And this is at Christian shows!
Anyways, I do not go to many shows anymore now that I have a wife and kids, and when I do, I rarely mosh. But If I want to mosh, I find it to be very frustrating. I lose my temper and start throwing kids around. I dont want to fight, I want to have fun, but what can I do when some guy I just know is intentionally trying to play tough guy on my face. I also find it very disturbing that these young ladies feel the need to "crowd surf" and let these guys paw and molest them. Very distracting. OH Dont Get me started! LOL.

So, am I just a hoity toity party pooper, or does anyone here rember "the good old days"?

Ahhh..the moshpit.

When I first ventured into metal the crowd was a sea of long hair banging in unison. The mosh pit came along later, kinda sometime in the late 80's, and was really an invasion from punk, so it was never really taken to by the old school metallers like myself. It was too punk, and you can't watch a great lead break while you're in the pit. However, the practice seemed to gel with the death and grindcore stuff really well, and they don't play too much lead, so I guess that kind of show still gets the occasional pit.

I like crowd surfing and stage diving, but if I were to do it now someone would have to hold my walking stick.

 

[Axver]

Hey I really dig that Demilich stuff man.

I decided, seeing I'm interested in checking out metal and all, that I'd download some of that stuff, and before any of the singing, I was quite pleased - I enjoyed the music. But what the Zooropa is up with the singer's voice? I'd like to find something like that, just actually with real singing.

 

[StandForTruth]

But what the Zooropa is up with the singer's voice? I'd like to find something like that, just actually with real singing.

To my knowledge it doesn't exist.

Most death metal bands have a more of a growling style, though, that seems to be more palatable to people who are not used to it..

 

[TheThinman]

Ahhh..the moshpit.

When I first ventured into metal the crowd was a sea of long hair banging in unison. The mosh pit came along later, kinda sometime in the late 80's, and was really an invasion from punk, so it was never really taken to by the old school metallers like myself. It was too punk, and you can't watch a great lead break while you're in the pit. However, the practice seemed to gel with the death and grindcore stuff really well, and they don't play too much lead, so I guess that kind of show still gets the occasional pit.

I like crowd surfing and stage diving, but if I were to do it now someone would have to hold my walking stick.

I was channel surfing last weekend and saw a show on i think MTV2. It was all about moshing, where it came from and where it is now. The show actually cleared up some of my genre confusion also. It started in Cali as slam dancing and was strictly Punk. This I remember. Then it branched out when "hardcore" was born. The more aggressive punk music spawned the moshing that I knew it as (mostly) except for the circular mosh that was the etiquette when I was doing it. There was even names for the different styles of moshing, the harlot, the pogo, etc. LOL. It turns out that "hardcore" was not metal at all. Which I was always under the impression it was. Just more agressive punk. Now I cannot stand punk, I tolerate it but its just not my gig. After all punk bands were always playing at the same venues I frequented as the metal bands. Now I guess the stuff that I was/am really into is called "crossover", which came along shortly after hardcore. Thats when the "circle mosh pit" came into fruition. I also listened to a few of the so called hardcore bands. But I am convinced that the scene I was in was some sort of fussion between hardcore and crossover, if that makes sense. The music and the moshing.
Then again Im going on the information of so called experts. The show was very entertaining though, I saw some stuff that took me way back to 1987 LOL.

 

[GrindedSewageRot]

Hello sorry to bother everyone I just registered today does anyone know of or is a fan of Goregrind? If so does Last Days of Humanity, Meatknife, Rompeprop, Gore, Dahmer or Neuro Visceral Exhumation sound familiar? These are my favorite bands and would like to start a Gore/Death/Sewage/SplatterGrind project that is unique - consisting of only touches of the above mentioned bands - to anyone who is interested and feels strongly against acts of violent sodomy, rape and feels like exposing the stupidity, cowardliness and weakness of such acts by crushing and mangling the concepts of such acts into a gory mess.

God Bless everyone

 

[HybridNation]

The only metal I listen to is Metallica, Megadeth, and hair metal.

 

[Taake]

Hello sorry to bother everyone I just registered today does anyone know of or is a fan of Goregrind? If so does Last Days of Humanity, Meatknife, Rompeprop, Gore, Dahmer or Neuro Visceral Exhumation sound familiar? These are my favorite bands and would like to start a Gore/Death/Sewage/SplatterGrind project that is unique - consisting of only touches of the above mentioned bands - to anyone who is interested and feels strongly against acts of violent sodomy, rape and feels like exposing the stupidity, cowardliness and weakness of such acts by crushing and mangling the concepts of such acts into a gory mess.

God Bless everyone

Well, I like some of it... It's usually too dumb for my taste, but a little change for a good laugh is what I can take out of it. My favs are Rompeprop (songs like Hellcock's Pornflakes are so damned funny) and Gut.

 

[Taake]

The metal genre is a broad genre. I mainly focus on good old thrash (no Metallica, Megadeth or Slayer poo), like Vio-Lence, Kreator, Coroner, Holy Terror and whatever the hell more. Then I like post-rock like Max Richter and Godspeed You! Black Emperor for example, but that's not metal ofcourse. Black Metal is what I listen most to by far. Can't get it more underground and underproduced. I own quite a few LP's that are limited under 500 (and no, these aren't available on CD as well). For the big names that some will know will I mention Burzum, Taake, Nargaroth (YEAH), Mütiilation, Vlad Tepes, Ulver and Drudkh. Lesser known bands that I like are Griffar, Stillhet, Belenos, Sombre Chemin, Noenum, Forest Of Fog, Mystic Forest, Bleak Forest, Woods Of Infinity, Interitus, Lunar Aurora and about 200 more that I'm not going to include here. I love lyrics about nature and sorrow, or a combination of that. This is why I mainly focus on the German, French and East-European scene. I can bear lyrics about satanism and even Naziism (although I can't find a group of people that I care less about), but I prefer not reading the latter. Lyrics about Satan can be good if proper wrote, I'm not least offended by them since I consider myself closest to a pantheist. I hate bands with strong images, the bands that I listen to usually don't have such since it reflects in the music. I'm glad the underground contains a lot of real projects by (preferably) one man that does the job just for the his own love for music.

 

[Carmack]

"Metal, substance of strength and honor!"
*que drum machine*

 

[HybridNation]

"Metal, substance of strength and honor!"
*que drum machine*

cool quote

 

[Chrome]

Mystic Forest,.

hey, i know them, some good metal right there, from France i believe

 

[Taake]

hey, i know them, some good metal right there, from France i believe

Yes, check out Eikenskaden's Black Laments Symphonie and The Last Dance if you like them...