Messianic Prophecies

[Byfaithalone1]

I'm not sure why you are trying to conflate science and religion.

I readily admit it isn't an apples to apples comparison. However, I do see a few, rare commonalities.

Science relies on exploration of ideas and notions. It thrives on being challenged.

Persons who are hungry for spiritual understanding often explore many ideas and notions and they often challenge the thinking with which they were raised. That is certainly true of my own spiritual journey. However, I concede that many people don't want to explore anything outside of the boxes they've built for themselves.

In religion there is no mechanism for determining which idea is correct. No means of independently testing who is right and who is wrong. That means that religion gets down to a matter of opinion.

Biases cloud the minds of many different seekers. This can be true both in science and in theology. There are many opinions in both.

Salvation is an idea unique to Christianity.

I agree completely. I wasn't raising it to try and push the idea on you. Rather, I think it is a compelling case study in the way in which theories clash and it supports our conversation relating to truth being found in tension between conflicting theories.

I'm quite happy for you to tackle it any way you like.

OK. I'll stick my toe in the water.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

The end of sin (Ezek 36:25-27, 33, 37:23-24)

Argy . . . In this passage, I clearly see evidence of God's promise to "give [Israel] a new heart and put a new spirit within [them.]" But I don't see a promise that He will make them sinless.

I concede that the passage refers to cleansing (as do many other passages), but the Bible doesn't consistently equate cleansing with "the end of sin."

I also concede that God promises to "deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned," but again I don't see why we would conclude this means "the end of sin."

Can you help me see where you found the concept of "the end of sin" in Ezekiel 36-37?

BFA

1"And you, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel and say, 'O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD.

2'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because the enemy has spoken against you, 'Aha!' and, 'The everlasting heights have become our possession,'
3therefore prophesy and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "For good reason they have made you desolate and crushed you from every side, that you would become a possession of the rest of the nations and you have been taken up in the talk and the whispering of the people."'"
4'Therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD Thus says the Lord GOD to the mountains and to the hills, to the ravines and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes and to the forsaken cities which have become a prey and a derision to the rest of the nations which are round about,
5therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Surely in the fire of My jealousy I have spoken against the rest of the nations, and against all Edom, who appropriated My land for themselves as a possession with wholehearted joy and with scorn of soul, to drive it out for a prey."
6'Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel and say to the mountains and to the hills, to the ravines and to the valleys, "Thus says the Lord GOD, 'Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and in My wrath because you have endured the insults of the nations.'
7"Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, 'I have sworn that surely the nations which are around you will themselves endure their insults.
8'But you, O mountains of Israel, you will put forth your branches and bear your fruit for My people Israel; for they will soon come.
9'For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you will be cultivated and sown.
10'I will multiply men on you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities will be inhabited and the waste places will be rebuilt.
11'I will multiply on you man and beast; and they will increase and be fruitful; and I will cause you to be inhabited as you were formerly and will treat you better than at the first. Thus you will know that I am the LORD.
12'Yes, I will cause men--My people Israel--to walk on you and possess you, so that you will become their inheritance and never again bereave them of children.'
13"Thus says the Lord GOD, 'Because they say to you, "You are a devourer of men and have bereaved your nation of children,"
14therefore you will no longer devour men and no longer bereave your nation of children,' declares the Lord GOD.
15"I will not let you hear insults from the nations anymore, nor will you bear disgrace from the peoples any longer, nor will you cause your nation to stumble any longer," declares the Lord GOD.'"
16Then the word of the LORD came to me saying,
17"Son of man, when the house of Israel was living in their own land, they defiled it by their ways and their deeds; their way before Me was like the uncleanness of a woman in her impurity.
18"Therefore I poured out My wrath on them for the blood which they had shed on the land, because they had defiled it with their idols.
19"Also I scattered them among the nations and they were dispersed throughout the lands According to their ways and their deeds I judged them.
20"When they came to the nations where they went, they profaned My holy name, because it was said of them, 'These are the people of the LORD; yet they have come out of His land.'
21"But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations where they went. Israel to Be Renewed for His Name's Sake

22"Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went.

23"I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst Then the nations will know that I am the LORD," declares the Lord GOD, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.
24"For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.
25"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
28"You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.
29"Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you.
30"I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations.
31"Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations.
32"I am not doing this for your sake," declares the Lord GOD, "let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!"
33'Thus says the Lord GOD, "On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places will be rebuilt.
34"The desolate land will be cultivated instead of being a desolation in the sight of everyone who passes by.
35"They will say, 'This desolate land has become like the garden of Eden; and the waste, desolate and ruined cities are fortified and inhabited.'
36"Then the nations that are left round about you will know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted that which was desolate; I, the LORD, have spoken and will do it."
37'Thus says the Lord GOD, "This also I will let the house of Israel ask Me to do for them: I will increase their men like a flock.
38"Like the flock for sacrifices, like the flock at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts, so will the waste cities be filled with flocks of men. Then they will know that I am the LORD."'" Ezekiel 37

Vision of the Valley of Dry Bones

1The hand of the LORD was upon me, and He brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me down in the middle of the valley; and it was full of bones.

2He caused me to pass among them round about, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley; and lo, they were very dry.
3He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know."
4Again He said to me, "Prophesy over these bones and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.'
5"Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, 'Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life.
6'I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the LORD.'"
7So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone.
8And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them.
9Then He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life."'"
10So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army. The Vision Explained

11Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished We are completely cut off.'

12"Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.
13"Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people.
14"I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.'" Reunion of Judah and Israel

15The word of the LORD came again to me saying,

16"And you, son of man, take for yourself one stick and write on it, 'For Judah and for the sons of Israel, his companions'; then take another stick and write on it, 'For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and all the house of Israel, his companions.'
17"Then join them for yourself one to another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand.
18"When the sons of your people speak to you saying, 'Will you not declare to us what you mean by these?'
19say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will put them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand."'
20"The sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.
21"Say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;
22and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms.
23"They will no longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. And they will be My people, and I will be their God. The Davidic Kingdom

24"My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them.

25"They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons' sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever.
26"I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever.
27"My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28"And the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever."'"
​

 

[Joe67]

Acts 3:18-26
18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. KJV

The full blessing in the earnest of the Spirit, blots out our sins and turns us from our iniquities and sin no longer has dominion over us. He who is born from above does not commit sin by transgressing the law.

Today is the day if we will hear his Voice speaking to us through his blood from the new Jerusalem which is above.

Let us not harden our hearts as they did in the provocation.

Rom 4:6-8
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. KJV

Heb 10:9-10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. KJV

Joe

 

[Argy Lacedom]

Can you help me see where you found the concept of "the end of sin" in Ezekiel 36-37?

The cited passages refer to God's promise that people will walk in his statutes, keep his ordinances and no longer defile themselves with transgressions. In other words, to end sin.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The cited passages refer to God's promise that people will walk in his statutes, keep his ordinances and no longer defile themselves with transgressions. In other words, to end sin.

This is what Adventists strive for. Sanctification is the working out of our own salvation, the goal of perfection through the Holy Spirit. The promise is, that if we will submit ourselves fully to the Spirit and heed it's conviction, praying for strength in overcoming as temptation comes upon us, then we can be without guile, in other words, without sin.

 

[Joe67]

Dan 9:24
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. KJV

Everlasting righteousness has been given unto us in Jesus Christ our Lord as our High Priest after the order of Melchisedec.

This is given to us when our transgressions of our knowledge is finished through the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus, and our sins of unbelief have come to an end through the washing of our bodies with the pure water of the Word of Jesus poured through the ashes of a one year old red heifer, and our iniquitous love of comfort has been reconciled/put away by beholding the suffering of Jesus as he was being perfected, the captain of our salvation, the Head of the Body.

When prophecy and tongues have done their work in our heart and mind, then they pass away as our supreme authority and the Lord anoints the spirit of Christ that he has put within us and prepares us to be sacrificed in ministry as Jesus was sacrificed, without a place to lay our head.

In this ministry we drink the cup given to us and drain it to the dregs, in the image of Jesus' cup, and we follow our captain in his battle against the principalities and powers in heavenly places, while ministering to and serving those who do not know their spiritual right hand from their left, as well as those who are like much cattle/beasts, thinking only of food and shelter and reproduction and war against those who are not of their blood line.

2 Tim 2:19
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. KJV

This witness presents the maturity in Jesus Christ. We begin by ceasing to transgress our knowledge, which defiles our conscience toward God.

Then sin is made an end through the righteous obedience of one man even unto death, which brings and end to our seeking righteousness through our works of the law.

Then, iniquity can be wrestled against in the darkness. He will depart from us at daybreak, if we continue wrestling against him, seeking the needed blessing, otherwise he will turn and hurt us.

Then the workings of grace do follow us. Goodness and mercy will follow us all the days of our life in Christ, as we dwell in his house forever. Our earthly love perishes and we live with grief and sorrow.

Jesus said, "Abide IN me, and I will abide IN you."

The testimony of Jesus, the spirit of prophecy, speaking through Paul, witnessed, "Those things that were gain to me, I counted but loss that I might win Christ, That I may be found IN him, not having my own righteousness, which is by the law, but that righteousness which is of faith. That I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable to his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead...that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Jesus Christ."

1 Cor 15:19
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. KJV

Joe

 

[k4c]

This is what Adventists strive for. Sanctification is the working out of our own salvation, the goal of perfection through the Holy Spirit. The promise is, that if we will submit ourselves fully to the Spirit and heed it's conviction, praying for strength in overcoming as temptation comes upon us, then we can be without guile, in other words, without sin.

The Law defines godly love so when we sin we actually violate a godly love principle.

Here's what it means to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect.

Matthew 5:44-48 But I say this to you: Love your enemies! Pray for those who are cruel to you, so that you will become sons of your Father, who is in heaven. God's sun shines upon good people and bad people. It rains upon the people who do right and upon those who do wrong. If you love only those people who love you, then you are not any better than anyone else. Even tax collectors do the same thing! If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing? Even people without God do the same thing! You must be pefect, as your Father in heaven is.''

 

[Joe67]

Love is the goal, the fruit on the tree of life, the Spirit of Christ.

This tree has roots, a trunk, limbs, branches, leaves.

The fruit begins as a blossom, which is beautiful, but must fall off that the bud may appear. The bud must grow to full maturity, without destruction from pests, hail, wind and too much or too little sun and rain, to be useful and beneficial for life.

Mature love is perfected through much pain, grief, sorrow and loss. This is the work of grace, the bitterness of God. Faith is sweet in our mouth. Grace is bitter to the god of our belly and his love for pleasure and comfort.

1 Cor 15:11
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. KJV

Rom 4:16
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, KJV

Joe

 

[Argy Lacedom]

This is what Adventists strive for. Sanctification is the working out of our own salvation, the goal of perfection through the Holy Spirit. The promise is, that if we will submit ourselves fully to the Spirit and heed it's conviction, praying for strength in overcoming as temptation comes upon us, then we can be without guile, in other words, without sin.

I'm not sure if I get your meaning. Are you agreeing that the prophesies have yet to be fulfilled?

AL

 

[Argy Lacedom]

Dan 9:24
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. KJV
...
...
Joe

I'm sorry Joe, I have no idea what you are saying in either of your posts or why you think it is relevant to the prophesies I listed.

AL

 

[Argy Lacedom]

The Law defines godly love so when we sin we actually violate a godly love principle.

Here's what it means to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect.

Matthew 5:44-48 But I say this to you: Love your enemies! Pray for those who are cruel to you, so that you will become sons of your Father, who is in heaven. God's sun shines upon good people and bad people. It rains upon the people who do right and upon those who do wrong. If you love only those people who love you, then you are not any better than anyone else. Even tax collectors do the same thing! If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing? Even people without God do the same thing! You must be pefect, as your Father in heaven is.''

As this has not happened I take it that you agree the messianic prophesies are yet to be fulfilled?

AL

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I'm not sure if I get your meaning. Are you agreeing that the prophesies have yet to be fulfilled?

AL

It is beginning to be fulfilled and will be in completeness in the 144,000

 

[k4c]

As this has not happened I take it that you agree the messianic prophesies are yet to be fulfilled?

AL

Of course there are still some prophecies yet to be fulfilled.

 

[Argy Lacedom]

Of course there are still some prophecies yet to be fulfilled.

Given that there are prophesies yet to be fulfilled I presume you agree that the sceptics among us are entitled to withhold our acceptance that Jesus is the messiah.

By the way, where in the Old Testament does it say that the messiah will come twice?

AL

 

[Argy Lacedom]

It is beginning to be fulfilled and will be in completeness in the 144,000

Pardon my ignorance. What is the 144,000?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Pardon my ignorance. What is the 144,000?

Rev 7:4
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 14:1,5
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads...

And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

These are the ones that have purified themselves and made it through the time of trouble and have been sealed by the sealing angel. They are to hold a special place next to the throne for what they will have to endure as Satan pours out his unbridled wrath upon them. Like Job, they will not be able to be killed but will have their faith tested as no one else before them will ever have to endure.

It's kind of ironic that most Christians will say that they want to be a part of the 144,000... I don't think they truly realize what this means.

 

[k4c]

Given that there are prophesies yet to be fulfilled I presume you agree that the sceptics among us are entitled to withhold our acceptance that Jesus is the messiah.

By the way, where in the Old Testament does it say that the messiah will come twice?

AL

All the prophesies of the coming of Messiah has already been fulfilled in Jesus but the work Jesus has in restoring all things and delivering up the kingdom is still yet to be fulfilled.

As far as the Old Testament verses go, you'll have to ask ECR because I'm at work for the next four days and I don't have access to my laptop. Right now I'm using my cell phone but I don't have the Bible search or cut and paste on my phone.

 

[Argy Lacedom]

All the prophesies of the coming of Messiah has already been fulfilled in Jesus but the work Jesus has in restoring all things and delivering up the kingdom is still yet to be fulfilled.

As far as the Old Testament verses go, you'll have to ask ECR because I'm at work for the next four days and I don't have access to my laptop. Right now I'm using my cell phone but I don't have the Bible search or cut and paste on my phone.

You claim all messianic prophesies have been fulfilled, but it is a baseless claim. Even your co-respondents have agreed that they have not been fulfilled.

Would you mind specifically addressing the unfulfilled prophesies listed in the OP?

 

[k4c]

You claim all messianic prophesies have been fulfilled, but it is a baseless claim. Even your co-respondents have agreed that they have not been fulfilled.

Would you mind specifically addressing the unfulfilled prophesies listed in the OP?

If someone who believed in God and loved God or at least was searching for God was searching for answers to those questions I would invest my time to give the answers but for someone who rejects God it would make no difference to them if they had the answers I don't have the time to invest.

 

[stinsonmarri]

BFA:

You stated:

In religion there is no mechanism for determining which idea is correct. No means of independently testing who is right and who is wrong. That means that religion gets down to a matter of opinion.

You are correct when it comes to religion but there is a way to prove right and wrong:

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isa 8:20

One Master, one belief, one immersion, one Elohim and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.Eph 4: 5, 6

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of Elohim. Mat 4:4

Study to shew thyself approved unto Elohim, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2Ti 2:15

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2Pe 1:20

All scripture is given by inspiration of Elohim, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of Elohim may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2Ti 3:16, 17

No religion can't but truth is known only by one's faith that can be understood by all through the Holy Spirit, but only if one choose to accept the message. So many religions is because they choose not too!

Blessings,
stinsonmarri