Messianic Mermaid: Of those not fully "human", could they worship Messiah?

[Lulav]

And he brought him forth abroad and said Look now toward heaven and tell the stars if thou be able to number them and he said unto him So shall thy seed be

 

[Gxg (G²)]

And he brought him forth abroad and said Look now toward heaven and tell the stars if thou be able to number them and he said unto him So shall thy seed be

Is there a specific frame of reference you're coming from with the verse---which I believe is either Genesis 13 or Genesis 15? Trying to be certain of where you were coming from..

 

[Lulav]

Sorry Easy, I didn't see this before and now I've forgotten why I posted that, but I looked up this thread to share with you something I've come across that I thought you might be interested in.

Have you ever heard of the Codex Seraphinianus? It's more about morphing from what I've read, but nonetheless about animals, humans and creatures combined. Thought you might like to add it to your reference base.

Here's a look inside.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Sorry Easy, I didn't see this before and now I've forgotten why I posted that

It's all good. Would've loved to know what was the original thought, but the world spins on

but I looked up this thread to share with you something I've come across that I thought you might be interested in.

Have you ever heard of the Codex Seraphinianus? It's more about morphing from what I've read, but nonetheless about animals, humans and creatures combined. Thought you might like to add it to your reference base.

Here's a look inside.

Checked it out. Very interesting material, though some of it did seem to be a bit perturbing to me...specifically, one of the scenes where it showed humans being sexual and looking like they morphed into crocodile-like beings. Real sobering when thinking about how it may've looked when men sinned against nature in trying to breed with other creatures

Although many of the pictures are grotesque and disturbing, but others are extremely beautiful and visionary. The inventiveness that it took to come up with all these conceptions of a hypothetical land is staggering.

 

[Lulav]

Maybe it's not so hypothetical, maybe this person had a 'glimpse into the past'?

I think with the man and woman and the crocodile is interesting. The 'serpent' that Moses was said to have was actually a crocodile (or maybe it was Aarons, I forget). Actually, humans going backwards from being created in the image of G-d to animals to be worshipped as gods does have some validation in ancient religions. Just something to think about, thought you might find it interesting.

As far as the scripture I quoted, the only thing I can think of it relating to was what you said above it. Abraham was told to look at the stars, and that he would have that many offspring. Now the stars are much more than the sands of the seas, so it is showing more offspring. Some were to become the chosen people and some not, but all from Abraham. As we know there are millions of Muslims in the world, most are of the Ishmalite lineage. That was also spoken to him when he was uncircumcised and called Abram.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Maybe it's not so hypothetical, maybe this person had a 'glimpse into the past'?.

Would be interesting to see what the author of the aforementioned work said about it...

I think with the man and woman and the crocodile is interesting. The 'serpent' that Moses was said to have was actually a crocodile (or maybe it was Aarons, I forget).

From what I know, the staff was one made by Moses in Numbers 21:8-10 / Numbers 21....and interestingly enough, the staff had become something that was needing to be destroyed by the time of Hezekiah since people in his day began to worship it, as seen in 2 Kings 18:3-5 /2 Kings 18. I'm not certain as to whether it was a crocodile that the staff was fashioned after...and I'd be curious as to where exactly you based your conclusion on. I'm not saying its not possible....but I'd like to know where your reference for such came from as its different from what I studied before.

( AActually, humans going backwards from being created in the image of G-d to animals to be worshipped as gods does have some validation in ancient religions. Just something to think about, thought you might find it interesting.

Indeed, thanks for bringing it up. It is interesting...though in the event it was missed, I mentioned part of that earlier when it came to multiple religions having symbols of humans with animal body parts and being mixed. That cannot be on accident, as said before...and perhaps people were really seeing something. For people actually morphing/"de-evolving" into mixed creatures somehow, it would make a difference in why others worshipped as they did..

And truth be told, for all the ways that it seems science has made it possible for man to go to that state again, it would not be surprising to see worship of such beings occurring again. Its actually not by accident that the media today actually popularizes such imagery in many ways, be it in the movies or the comic books or the T.V. People love the supernatural/mixed creatures...and it may be the case that people are being prepared to accept it as normal before such things come out again...

As far as the scripture I quoted, the only thing I can think of it relating to was what you said above it. Abraham was told to look at the stars, and that he would have that many offspring. Now the stars are much more than the sands of the seas, so it is showing more offspring. Some were to become the chosen people and some not, but all from Abraham. As we know there are millions of Muslims in the world, most are of the Ishmalite lineage. That was also spoken to him when he was uncircumcised and called Abram

Got ya, as it concerns what was noted before with the subject of Two-House Theory and those scattered throughout the world who were "children of Abraham." Don't know why I missed that, as the original comment you made about Abraham being told to look to the stars came after my comment to sister yedia on the two-house issue.

I agree that children of ABrhaham doesn't just have to be dealing with those children who are followers of the God he served....

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Have you ever heard of the Codex Seraphinianus? It's more about morphing from what I've read, but nonetheless about animals, humans and creatures combined. Thought you might like to add it to your reference base.

Here's a look inside.

Maybe it's not so hypothetical, maybe this person had a 'glimpse into the past'?

For a book that many say is simply "imagination", it seems way to freaky for it to really be things that simply came out of nowhere...

Codex Seraphinianus Clipshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNCP1ioc_o4​

If its indeed the case that the author was recieving pictures into the past when he made the work, then its not surprising to see how the imagery seems reflective of the kind of world that the Bible describes when God is not in the picture. For that world is utter chaos....with things being completely opposite from the way things were meant to make sense in a logical world that the Lord created. As another said best:

Many of the pages read to Beachcombing like an IQ question where a series of symbols or pictures denote a pattern that needs to be deduced. Yet as there is no chance of fully understanding the pattern the reader can relax over it without any fear of losing a percentile or two. Think a Rubik’s cube with each of the fifty four panels a different colour, then imagine ‘solving’ the cube in a scented bath.
​

But if the hints of a foreign system of logic are not enough, there is also something more, something very inhuman.

The antique Christians used to place the order of heaven against the chaos of hell. The devil spawned anarchy.

Well, any human guide book or history of a foreign place is heaven sent, preferring order. It takes the new animals, plants, buildings, people and pins them to the page like a moth in a collector’s cabinet. The Codex seems obsessed with change: everything is always moving, nothing is taped down. Whether this is a cycle of Ovid or the flux of the diabolus is anyone’s guess. But it is impressive and rather frightening to get up close to… A couple make love on a white bed, become an alligator that then (singular) hops off the bed
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Apart from that, its interesting to consider how what world the Codex Seraphinanus describes no one is quite sure for the very good reason that it is not written in a human language. Whether or not the language is just scrawl, as the author recently claimed – or whether it is, Tolkien-style (from "Lord of the Rings" when it came to the language of the Elves being made up)... an attempt to create a language...the options are debated. What has terrified others is that the page numbers can be deciphered and they have been written using a twenty-one base numerical system.

With the book itself, I read in another article ( as seen here ) something very interesting when it came to describing how the book used images rather than words to depict information...and interestingly enough, it was images/symbols that were often used to communicate truth within ancient religions. For a good article on such, one can investigate a site entitled (Un)Dead Languages: 10 Mysterious Undeciphered Scripts

 

[Lulav]

Would be interesting to see what the author of the aforementioned work said about it...

From what I know, the staff was one made by Moses in Numbers 21:8-10 / Numbers 21....and interestingly enough, the staff had become something that was needing to be destroyed by the time of Hezekiah since people in his day began to worship it, as seen in 2 Kings 18:3-5 /2 Kings 18. I'm not certain as to whether it was a crocodile that the staff was fashioned after...and I'd be curious as to where exactly you based your conclusion on. I'm not saying its not possible....but I'd like to know where your reference for such came from as its different from what I studied before.

Wrong staff. I am speaking of the one he went into see Pharoah with. Not the one the L-RD commanded he make in the wilderness when they complained and he send fiery serpents among them. That was bronze. The staff Moses had in Egypt (when he went back) was that of a shepherd.

I think I said that it was Moses or Aaron, I checked and it was Aaron's that turned into a tannin, which many believe to be a crocodile, something Egyptians were familiar with, worshiped and were very afraid of.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When Pharaoh shall speak to you, saying, Show a miracle; then you shall say to Aaron, Take your staff, and throw it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a tanin. (Exodus 7:9)

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great tannin crouching in the river, which has said, My river is my own, and I have made it for myself. But I will put hooks in your jaws, and I will cause the fish of your streams to stick to your scales, and I will bring you up from the midst of your streams, and all the fish of your streams shall stick to your scales. (Ezekiel 29:3-5)[/FONT]

Some have defined this tannin as a snake but a snake does not crouch in the river, but a crocodile with is indigenous in the Nile, ever today, does.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Wrong staff. I am speaking of the one he went into see Pharoah with. Not the one the L-RD commanded he make in the wilderness when they complained and he send fiery serpents among them. That was bronze. The staff Moses had in Egypt (when he went back) was that of a shepherd.
.

My bad..as I don't know why I forgot about that one from the OT. That was a powerful story, as seen in the Exodus account when the serpent ate the snakes of the magicians up.

I think I said that it was Moses or Aaron, I checked and it was Aaron's that turned into a tannin, which many believe to be a crocodile, something Egyptians were familiar with, worshiped and were very afraid of.

I went back and checked...and it turns out that it was also the staff of Moses that the Lord turned into a serpent, as seen in Exodus 4:2-4

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When Pharaoh shall speak to you, saying, Show a miracle; then you shall say to Aaron, Take your staff, and throw it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a tanin. (Exodus 7:9)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great tannin crouching in the river, which has said, My river is my own, and I have made it for myself. But I will put hooks in your jaws, and I will cause the fish of your streams to stick to your scales, and I will bring you up from the midst of your streams, and all the fish of your streams shall stick to your scales. (Ezekiel 29:3-5)[/FONT]

Some have defined this tannin as a snake but a snake does not crouch in the river, but a crocodile with is indigenous in the Nile, ever today, does
[/FONT]

If going off of what Ezekiel 29 says to establish the snake as a crocodile, I could somewhat see where you're coming from. However, there are differing translations that do not say that the great tannin equates to an animal like a crodocidle. Its not as if snakes don't crouch. When humans encounter deadly snakes, it occurs often. In example, the rattlesnakes shake their rattles -- attached to the end of their tails -- and crouch in a defensive pose.

Snakes in the Nile area also crouch before striking....and so, that may not be able to be ruled out with Ezekiel. As the Egyptians also worshipped snakes as well as crocodiles, it would have the same effect in producing fear if a snake was what a staff turned into...though a crocodile would be just as spectacular. Moreover, as both crocidles and snakes are reptiles, there doesn't have to be a case where one text involving snakes must mean that another equates to the same. Its more than possible for Ezekiel to be refering to crocodiles whereas the text within Exodus was moreso focused on snakes/serpents.

Just a thought. Whatever the case was, a staff morphing into another animal would have been wild regardless due to the concept of gods morphing into differing kinds of animals...and the Lord did tell Moses he'd make him like a god unto Pharoah due to the power Moses walked in. Seeing someone else with the power of transformation would have given Moses the audience he needed to declare how God was above all other gods of nature...and in control of them. Its why even the magicians turning their staffs into snakes was worthless since the transformative power of Moses with his staff was far superior. Interestingly enough, it could be said that perhaps God was showing that believing in the power of transformation/morphing from one state to another (just as he did with the water turning to blood and the dust of the ground turning into gnats, etc) was not a problem....so long as He was the one directing it. It does bring up the question of whether beings with mixed attributes were ever a problem for the Lord......as scripture seems to show that repeatedly.

Where man may've erred is trying to force mixture on its own apart from God---but the mixture itself may not have been a problem. The heavenlines themselves are full of such creatures:

Ezekiel 1:10
I looked, and I saw a windstorm coming out of the north—an immense cloud with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light. The center of the fire looked like glowing metal, 5 and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was human, 6 but each of them had four faces and four wings. 7 Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. 8 Under their wings on their four sides they had human hands. All four of them had faces and wings, 9 and the wings of one touched the wings of another. Each one went straight ahead; they did not turn as they moved.

Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a human being, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle.
Ezekiel 1:9-11 Ezekiel 1



Ezekiel 10:14
Each of the cherubim had four faces: One face was that of a cherub, the second the face of a human being, the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.
Ezekiel 10:13-15 /Ezekiel 10




Revelation 4:6-8 / Revelation 4
6 Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.
In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings.Day and night they never stop saying:
“‘Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,’[a] who was, and is, and is to come.”



​

If the heavens themselves have creatures with mixed attributes, then one must wonder if what man was doing when making "idols/gods" was simply trying to worship what they may've seen that seemed similar to what occurred above...and with the theme of the angels themselves teaching men/getting men to worship them, it would not have been surprising that some of the fallen angels indeed looked like mixed creatures.

And with that in mind, could it not have been possible that the Lord may've made mixed creatures (i.e. with human/aquatic animal features) for the earth below just as he made ones in the heavenlies? Just a consideration, of course..

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I am speaking of the one he went into see Pharoah with. Not the one the L-RD commanded he make in the wilderness when they complained and he send fiery serpents among them. That was bronze. The staff Moses had in Egypt (when he went back) was that of a shepherd.

I think I said that it was Moses or Aaron, I checked and it was Aaron's that turned into a tannin, which many believe to be a crocodile, something Egyptians were familiar with, worshiped and were very afraid of.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When Pharaoh shall speak to you, saying, Show a miracle; then you shall say to Aaron, Take your staff, and throw it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a tanin. (Exodus 7:9)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great tannin crouching in the river, which has said, My river is my own, and I have made it for myself. But I will put hooks in your jaws, and I will cause the fish of your streams to stick to your scales, and I will bring you up from the midst of your streams, and all the fish of your streams shall stick to your scales. (Ezekiel 29:3-5)[/FONT]

Some have defined this tannin as a snake but a snake does not crouch in the river, but a crocodile with is indigenous in the Nile, ever today, does.

Was thinking of you the other day in regards to what you noted on the staff of Moses turning possibly into a crocodile (As well as the general theme of what the serpent represents)--and I came across this, which really made me think on the possibilities of what you mentioned:

• Moses and His Crocodile
• Genesis--Leviticus - Google Books Result

The work of Rabbi Natan Slifkin also came to mind, as discussed here , here , and here . For he is the director of Zoo Torah--and though he has gotten into trouble for teaching evolution to his children, many of the things he has often noted in his books and reviews are quite brilliant, IMHO.

It was interesting to consider how Aaron's staff differs in ability (according to the wording ) from that of Moses's staff. For the first cycle of plagues come by Aaron’s staff and not Moses staff (cf 7:19; 8:5-6; 8:16-17). When Aaron throws his staff down the English translation says it will become a serpent but the Hebrew text says a crocodile (tannin). Moses staff became a “serpent” (nachash) in the sight of the elders of Israel to convince them that Moses was YHWH’s chosen prophet (Exod 4:1-5)...and it is interesting to note how that miracle was well-suited for the desert environment. But with Aaron's staff, if seeing how it transformed into a crocodile , that would be sensible since it is well-suited for Egyptian environment. ...and very scary, as it was Egypt's top predator and having it transform before Pharoah would have given a clear sign that the Lord was in charge.

The view of seeing both serpents and crocodiles seems to be very reasonable, IMHO, if seeing how differing staffs were utilized...and I'm very glad for those who've sought to do as much scholarly work in noting so. Seeing movies like "The Prince of Egypt" (probably one of my favorite animated features), I would've loved to see how it would've looked if the staff of Moses had turned into a crocodile

The Prince of Egypt - Playing With The Big Boys / HD 720p ​