Messianic Judaism?

Gxg (G²) · Dec 31, 2012

All have given analysis - unless it's the case that all were talking for it's own sake. Thus, there needs to be focus on the issues rather than on people disagreed with. Otherwise, there's inability to talk to the moderator directly on possible solutions/what they feel is an issue.

That is in line with what was noted earlier both by mods and posters that people are unable to resist taking things personal if it disagrees with them.

Gxg (G²) · Dec 31, 2012

Thank goodness that God is good. And God is Faithful.

Steve Petersen · Dec 31, 2012

and people generally suck.

Yahudim · Dec 31, 2012

Third point of contention: Members falsely claiming Torah observance, putting the opinions of outside organizations above the rules and SOP of this organization.

Gxg (G²) · Dec 31, 2012

I like what ContraMundum noted earlier as an issue -

ContraMundum said:
t some people cannot compromise and live with the opinions of others in a charitable way. I really think that an internet forum is not for them.
.

The inability to deal with the issue of failing to be charitable to others when it comes to assuming anything isn't observance of God's Law if/when it is not what they do - and having no basis for protest outside of claiming others aren't observing. In regards to solution, things could go very well when there's ability to work with others rather than assume the worst of others and only see the best in themselves. The SoP of the forum is something all here in the thread take seriously - and others have noted many times where the SoP is consistent with what they live out daily and what the Messianic Jewish movement of the 60s/70s was founded upon - being a Bridge for Jewish believers to have a place of belonging in the Body where their heritage is valued and making others aware of the beauty of His Torah, while also helping the Church discover how to relate/help Jewish believers as well

This is what Christian Forums was founded on - in direct agreement with what Christianity promotes and what the SoP of this organization is in support of.

Yahudim · Jan 1, 2013

Point of contention - four, five and six: Caring what a non-observant Christian says about compromise and Torah observance, should have no bearing upon Torah observance in a Torah observant Messianic Judaism forum.
Allowing a non-observant Christian to teach about Torah observance in a Torah observant Messianic forum.
Allowing someone to quote the teachings of a non-observant Christian on Torah observance in a Torah observant Messianic forum.

Yahudim · Jan 1, 2013

Just a reminder...
Non-Torah-observance is not a level of Torah observance.

Messianic Judaism started with the Messiah - not the Southern Baptists.

Y'shua did not compromise about Torah observance.

Torah observance is a condition of our SOP.

If you claim the scroll icon and are not Torah observant,
then you are not being honest.

Avodat · Jan 1, 2013

Crikey - the shouting is really loud!!!!

The rules say, at No. 1: (Torah)...this can be an area of great division with much misunderstanding, so we must realize that we are all at different points in our walk and that the Ruach Elohim (the Spirit of God) will lead people to The Truth. We realize that not all Messianics have equal levels of Torah observance. The disputes concerning this matter will not be tolerated.

and we have an 'Everything Torah!' thread, so why has this thread got so violent?

yedida · Jan 1, 2013

Avodat said:
Crikey - the shouting is really loud!!!!

The rules say, at No. 1: (Torah)...this can be an area of great division with much misunderstanding, so we must realize that we are all at different points in our walk and that the Ruach Elohim (the Spirit of God) will lead people to The Truth. We realize that not all Messianics have equal levels of Torah observance. The disputes concerning this matter will not be tolerated.

and we have an 'Everything Torah!' thread, so why has this thread got so violent?

Because no one goes into that forum and it was so stated before it was created.
Regardless, this is the home page of the Messianic Forum and like Tal said, none observance in not a form of Torah observance. Yes, there will be levels but therein is the fact - there WILL BE some form of observance. Turning people away from observing Torah has been tolerated for way too long!!

ContraMundum · Jan 1, 2013

Tishri1 said:
I see we have some problems here, let me try and understand tell me if I am close to describing how you feel ok?......From what I see some MJ's here think the Torah teaching is being watered down and they dont want the forum to be just like any other Christian forum where there is no distinction of Torah obedience. These could even see it getting so bad that the fear is there that Torah will be meaningless at some point if its not addressed.

The other group is offended because they want all attempts at Torah observance to be acceptable and not put under the radar of judgement. They dont want their practices to be labled as subpar to any norm or even superior Torah practice, and the fear is there that they be told to remove their Icon if they dont live up to a certain level of acceptance

Both groups have a need lets see if we can give each of them some value and honor

Talk to me not to eachother and please dont quote and paste gobs of stuff written by someone else and add a.... I know thats tempting but let me hear your voice

I wanna know first if you are one of the two people groups i described above and how you want to solve this

Please be brief it helps me when you are consise and genuine

And please try not to point out others problems because what is important is your issue right now.

HI Tish,

I say there is nothing wrong with the rules, and that the sub-forums are already in place to make concessions for the "problems" pointed out by the two who are complaining.

I think that the history of this forum has always been one of making concessions for the varying positions on MJism, and therefore the complaints we are seeing is really just a lack of compliance with those concessions.

Tal is basically making his points based on his own religious ideals- but we have a sub-forum that is perfect for him already. I think he has been judgmental on others here and this was never meant to be a place where conversation and opinion was to be dominated by one or two people judging all others, as if they had some kind of authority at all.

There are other forums that these would-be judges of the brethren would not be tolerated at all. There are others where they already post and are tolerated.

My solution is this:

- There are already sub-forums for those who believe they are more "observant" than others. People who wish to discuss this kind of thing or be encouraged in their walk towards that should merely post there. This is not difficult.

- Don't change the rules at all- just encourage 1) tolerance and 2) posting in the appropriate sub-forums. Enforce the breaches of the rules already in place and all will be well.

- If people find that the Christian Forums MJ forum is too lax for them, then they ought to consider whether or not they are suited to it. Rather than force everyone else to make even more concessions for the few, perhaps it's just not the right place for the kind of doctrinal tyranny they are standing for.

The concessions have already been made. The forums are in place. Why all the shouting and crying?

ContraMundum · Jan 1, 2013

yedida said:
Because no one goes into that forum and it was so stated before it was created.
Regardless, this is the home page of the Messianic Forum and like Tal said, none observance in not a form of Torah observance. Yes, there will be levels but therein is the fact - there WILL BE some form of observance. Turning people away from observing Torah has been tolerated for way too long!!

Yed, with respect, you haven't thought this through. Who will be the judge of who is "observant enough" or what constitutes "minimal observance required to be deemed observant"? Certainly not you, or Tal, or in fact anyone here. This is not a Beit Din, nor is MJism Islamic where it should degenerate into bickering about who is holy enough and who should be silenced and shunned or worse.

What you are calling for is beyond the legal scope of an internet forum. It can 't be policed, and no one here is qualified to judge another on their religious life choices.

Mere humans who want to silence all opposition with endless and ever mounting myriads of rules should in fact worry you (esp when they are int he minority!). You should not join their ranks but stand against them- after all, is this not exactly one of the reasons you left the Church?

ContraMundum · Jan 1, 2013

talmidim said:
Third point of contention: Members falsely claiming Torah observance

Seriously, would you like to the be judge over who is "false" and who is "true"? All of your points of contention would require an awful lot of judging, interviews, and all this other stuff. A forum Gestapo? God forbid!

I don't think you are being even slightly realistic here. Don't you have a congregation where you can seek out to live observant (whatever that means to you) and shouldn't you be here to fellowship. The MJ forum at CF will not become a denomination, I hate to tell you. This is not aiming to become a congregation with strict adherence to some dogmas. We all have outside places for that (or equivalent). IOW, you should live your religious life in a congregation, not here. This is multi-denominational and diverse, and we have all kinds of Ms and MJs here. This is a fact of life, I'm afraid. It's about how you deal with it. You've let it get you. You shouldn't.

Seems to me that you are very focused on a particular paradigm of what you consider to be Torah observance, and now you feel so immersed in it that you think the world should be doing it or you will do lots of posts with big bold letters until the world changes. Am I close?

ContraMundum · Jan 1, 2013

Avodat said:
Crikey - the shouting is really loud!!!!

The rules say, at No. 1: (Torah)...this can be an area of great division with much misunderstanding, so we must realize that we are all at different points in our walk and that the Ruach Elohim (the Spirit of God) will lead people to The Truth. We realize that not all Messianics have equal levels of Torah observance. The disputes concerning this matter will not be tolerated.

and we have an 'Everything Torah!' thread, so why has this thread got so violent?

I know, I know! It's just absurd.

Avodat · Jan 1, 2013

ContraMundum said:
I know, I know! It's just absurd.

Maybe violating Torah to say Torah observance is essential is a going to be a 2013 thing

yedida · Jan 1, 2013

so to you a person who tells a seeker that eating the weekends catch of catfish is not breaking biblical dietary laws thus turning a seeker away from a mitzvot is being torah observant? Not in my book.
Another poster counselling female seeker interested in niddah that this is not improtant to Torah observance.
And the examples of this none-observance goes on and on.
Like I said before, the posters who want to claim TO when they are not is fine with me. I couldn't care less what they do. I only care what they post in a Torah Observant forum.

It's not just in my book wrong, Yeshua had something to say about it too. I'm sure you don't need the references.

Yahudim · Jan 1, 2013

Gee. No one is talking about various degrees of observance. No one is saying that you shouldn't bring Lil' Smokies to a bris or whether or not cheese on your burger is against scripture or tradition. If that were the conversation then I would be engaged.

The topic is Torah observance - yay or nay and whether or not it is a tenet of Messianic Judaism IN THIS FORUM AND BY THIS SOP. And all I hear from you with your Christian icon, is non-observance. You shouldn't even be allowed to voice your opinion on the subject. Not here.

So I am being intolerant because you are breaking the rules? So I am being uncharitable (uncharitable, really?) because of my observations about the abuses to the SOP, the rules and the abuses to the Torah observant membership?

Compromise our values?
Be more charitable with our beliefs?
Violate our promises and the rules we agreed to abide by? This is a violation of Torah?
Really? Is that the best you got?

Yahudim · Jan 1, 2013

Avodat said:
Crikey - the shouting is really loud!!!!

The rules say, at No. 1: (Torah)...this can be an area of great division with much misunderstanding, so we must realize that we are all at different points in our walk and that the Ruach Elohim (the Spirit of God) will lead people to The Truth. We realize that not all Messianics have equal levels of Torah observance. The disputes concerning this matter will not be tolerated.

and we have an 'Everything Torah!' thread, so why has this thread got so violent?

So are you an advocate of non-observance as a level of Torah observance? So death must now be a level of life?

BTW, sorry it's so loud. But I'm glad somebody finally heard something.

Avodat · Jan 1, 2013

talmidim said:
So are you an advocate of non-observance as a level of Torah observance? So death must now be a level of life?

BTW, sorry it's so loud. But I'm glad somebody finally heard something.

Not at all, but as already said, I think this thread runs the risk of breaking Torah in order to declare that Torah is un-breakable!

If someone is clearly posting against the agreed rules they should not be engaged with (as per Mod's instructions) but should be reported.

Yahudim · Jan 1, 2013

Declare then how standing up for the truth is breaking Torah.

Doesn't seem to be any tolerance of Torah observance on this side of things. Strange for a forum that espouses Torah observance as a basic tenet of that forum.

BTW, i'll repeat it in case you weren't listening.
Non-observance is not a level of observance.
Just like non-skid is the opposite of skid.
Just like non-abrasive is the opposite of abrasive,
Just like non-stick is the opposite of of something that sticks.
Just like a non-sequitur is an argument in which its conclusion does not follow its premises. Just like the argument that you offer.

Non-observance is not an excuse to claim that non-observance is a different level of observance and therefore cannot be challenged. That is a non-sequitur.

I think some of the members here run the risk of breaking Torah by advocating non-observance of Torah.

Avodat · Jan 1, 2013

talmidim said:
Declare then how standing up for the truth is breaking Torah.

Doesn't seem to be any tolerance of Torah observance on this side of things. Strange for a forum that espouses Torah observance as a basic tenet of that forum.

BTW, i'll repeat it in case you weren't listening.
Non-observance is not a level of observance.
Just like non-skid is the opposite of skid.
Just like non-abrasive is the opposite of abrasive,
Just like non-stick is the opposite of of something that sticks.
Just like a non-sequitur is an argument in which its conclusion does not follow its premises. Just like the argument that you offer.

Non-observance is not an excuse to claim that non-observance is a different level of observance and therefore cannot be challenged. That is a non-sequitur.

I think some of the members here run the risk of breaking Torah by advocating non-observance of Torah.

How we say things, or write them, can violate a basic premise of Torah - that we should love others as we love ourselves.

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