Messianic Judaism

[Huram Abi]

Elijah is the messenger before the Messiah.. Therefore it was a way of looking for the day when "Elijah" would come and make way for the Jewish Messianic era. Yeshua using that cup is pure conjecture. He was more likely to use the "redemption" cup. As that was He calling with His first coming.

The third cup of wine is taken after the meal. It is the cup of redemption, which reminds us of the shed blood of the innocent Lamb which brought our redemption from Egypt. We see that Jesus took the third cup in Luke 22:20 and 1 Corinthians 11:25, "In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.'" This was not just any cup, it was the cup of redemption from slavery into freedom.

I'm glad you've pointed this out. These are the clues that tell us what cup he drinks from. This is the sort of conclusion we would expect to arrive at when we read the scripture and understand the traditions in context.

 

[yedida]

I'm glad you've pointed this out. These are the clues that tell us what cup he drinks from. This is the sort of conclusion we would expect to arrive at when we read the scripture and understand the traditions in context.

And if I'm not mistaken, it is after this cup that tradition opens the door to allow Elijah to come join the festivities if he is there waiting. No? Or is my memory once again faulty (after all it's been several months since we did this, )

 

[Desert Rose]

They will even provide examples of the latest endeavors including calling God Allah.

terms are in general a very tricky business
Christian arabs use the word Allah, so do arabic Bibles(about 3 versions that i saw, and my arabic is at dog's stage: "uderstand some of that i hear, but can't speak "

The argument can be made about engl word easter, and sunday, and even God, that is german in origin and came from meaning a pagan entity.

my 2 cents -its not the word itself, it what it means to a person. Dogeared cliche example :word "gay"

 

[visionary]

I would just prefer Jewish terms in MJ, so that everyone here has a Jewish mind picture and reference point.

 

[Huram Abi]

And if I'm not mistaken, it is after this cup that tradition opens the door to allow Elijah to come join the festivities if he is there waiting. No? Or is my memory once again faulty (after all it's been several months since we did this, )

The cup sits on the table, awaiting for Elijah to come to the door as a guest and possibly drink from it. The house he chooses to do this at recieves a blessing, so it has become custom to leave the door open as an open invitation to him.

You must remember, though, that it is still an open question whether we should drink from the cup and it is Elijah, only, who is meant to answer it. When he appears, he may choose not to drink from it. There are two possible answers here.

This is why drinking from the cup is not a declaration that Elijah has returned. He can return and still not drink from the cup. If Elijah does not drink from the cup, how are we to determine that he is Elijah? Of course, the 7 miracles he will perform. Elijah's purpose in this narrative is simply to answer a disagreement. Not to announce that he has returned. Assuming that he will drink from the cup is someone elese imposing their idea that we are supposed to drink it, without conferring with Elijah first.

 

[yedida]

I would just prefer Jewish terms in MJ, so that everyone here has a Jewish mind picture and reference point.

Same here, but not everyone is coming from English speaking countries. I've had to learn to stay calm when I hear people using lesser "liked" terms until I find out just what they are talking about before getting all crazy. Someone coming from an Islamic background may have no problem using the name Jesus or Yeshua, but find it mighty hard to use God or Hashem instead of Allah. We need to make sure what the other person means when they use what for many are "off-limit" terms. Good point, DRose!

 

[visionary]

I think in this case..... eucharist ... in not seder.

 

[Desert Rose]

Woud you, ladies , say that its the case in MJ congs? sorry for my ignorance.So are mosty Jewish terms being used? i am curious


PS ContraMundum and Heber, thanks much for replies about the baptism, sorry for commenting late, this thread moves at such speed, you snooze-you lose. CM, i agree, The Church is amazingly much better then their history or theology warrants

 

[ChavaK]

Sorry, I was being a little tongue in cheek. It just makes me so cross when I hear people say that a Jew must give up his Jewishness to become a christian. What rubbish. So I guess I take every opportunity I can to say that a Jew does not have to stop being a Jew to become a christian.

I guess it depends on what side of the fence you are on

 

[Huram Abi]

I think in this case..... eucharist ... in not seder.

Right... the Eucharist is based on the funery rites of the cult of Osiris where it is believed that eating the flesh of a god grants godhood or godlike qualities.

For the Greeks, this is envisioned as Ambrosia, removing the connotations of cannibalism.

 

[Desert Rose]

I guess it depends on what side of the fence you are on

thats the thing.... I am a FIRM believer that in rome do as romans do. If one cant stand MJ or Xnity heat enough to not bash it -get out of the MJ forums kitchen.

MJs want to use Jewish terms - power to them, admire the chuzpah.But!! if I may.... I hope you guys are realistic to know that most Jews think of MJ or xtians using their terms, right? lets say, "mikveh" ? Same that we think of an atheist taking a bath and calling it "baptism".Trust me on this. Again, shouldnt deterr you, but just for the info...

I am babysitting a dog. He just jumped on my laptop warningless and almost send this msge. If you see a post "too strange even for DRose's low standars", its Mr.Spike.

 

[yedida]

To Peacedove (somehow your post got past me), I agree. A Jew has only to accept Yeshua to their faith - not give up a thing!! As far as I can see, it's more the gentile that should be doing any converting or giving up of anything. Just my opinion, of course.

To DRose, again, my opinion, but I do not see the eucharist/communion as the same thing as the Seder. Yeshua was in the middle of the Seder when he gave instructions to "remember" his blood and body given for us. I see it as just a slight addition to the overall memorial. The Israelites (not just the Jews) were released from the bondage of slavery to the Egyptians and redeemed back by Hashem by the blood and the flesh, and now along with that the gentiles were being released from the bondage of slavery to sin (as we had had no such thing as the Temple services up to that point) and redeemed by God by the blood and the flesh in this particular memorial. The new memorial holds freedom and redemption for all who will receive it now by the same God because of the same Lamb's blood and flesh. This was instituted at the Passover Seder.

In one of the gospels the vernacular reads like Yeshua is saying that whenever you come together to share the bread and the wine, to do so in remembrance of him and what he did. It can be understood that he means when once a year you (the Jews and now the gentiles too) come together at the Seder (because he was sitting at the Pesach table proper), or it can be read to mean just whenever. I don't think either are wrong, I just personally understand it as meaning at the Seder.

 

[visionary]

thats the thing.... I am a FIRM believer that in rome do as romans do. If one cant stand MJ or Xnity heat enough to not bash it -get out of the MJ forums kitchen.

MJs want to use Jewish terms - power to them, admire the chuzpah.But!! if I may.... I hope you guys are realistic to know that most Jews think of MJ or xtians using their terms, right? lets say, "mikveh" ? Same that we think of an atheist taking a bath and calling it "baptism".Trust me on this. Again, shouldnt deterr you, but just for the info...

I am babysitting a dog. He just jumped on my laptop warningless and almost send this msge. If you see a post "too strange even for DRose's low standars", its Mr.Spike.

I am a firm believer to find and do all things in Yeshua's .. as this is His Kingdom.. MJ forum using Jewish terms will go a long ways to helping outsiders see and understand the difference. Mixing terms like greek or roman just because everyone else is doing it... we should be above that.

 

[Heber]

Right... the Eucharist is based on the funery rites of the cult of Osiris where it is believed that eating the flesh of a god grants godhood or godlike qualities.

For the Greeks, this is envisioned as Ambrosia, removing the connotations of cannibalism.

This is totally off the wall! No credible Christian has ever taken this view. It is actually based on the Passover / Feast of un-leavened bread which is why it also has the names: The Lord's Supper or The Last Supper, unless you are also saying that Passover is also based on the same historical events.

 

[ChavaK]

its Mr.Spike.

Is he a bull dog? Sounds like a bull dogish name.

 

[Desert Rose]

Adult Sharpei, Chava. Ony face is wrinked, body isn't.

Yedida and Visie, thank you for the explanations. I agree, even though I think that usage of terms, esp shared by different religions like Judaism and Xnity, is a complicated issue, i dont fully grasp it.

 

[visionary]

This is totally off the wall! No credible Christian has ever taken this view. It is actually based on the Passover / Feast of un-leavened bread which is why it also has the names: The Lord's Supper or The Last Supper, unless you are also saying that Passover is also based on the same historical events.

It is credible.. It is historical.. I understand your training makes you stand on the position you do.. but this is a MJ forum and in that light Seder setting is more historically realistic to the format that Yeshua was working with. Rabbis explain and expound upon what is already given..

 

[ChavaK]

Adult Sharpei, Chava. Ony face is wrinked, body isn't.

That's funny......they get less wrinkled as they get older?
What's their secret? I could use some Sharpei beauty tips....

 

[Heber]

It is credible.. It is historical.. I understand your training makes you stand on the position you do.. but this is a MJ forum and in that light Seder setting is more historically realistic to the format that Yeshua was working with. Rabbis explain and expound upon what is already given..

Wrong - scripture does. I think I've been around long enough (7years) to know what the various fora are on CF!

The link given to cannibalism is NOT connected in any way, shape or form to the Eucharist (or the same event by any other name used by the Church). If you wish to continue attacking the Church please show real irrefutable evidence for your claims or cease the attack. I'm getting fed up with it - the red button will be used if it persists.

 

[ChavaK]

This is totally off the wall! No credible Christian has ever taken this view.

I've seen a growing trend on the part of some (not all!) Messianics to try
to attach pagan meaning to certain Christian beliefs and rituals.
I find that appalling.