Messianic Judaism

[Peacedove]

Unless he was The Elijah?

He did the eucharust blessing with the elijah gobblet so we'd think about it?

But you can remain a Jew and believe in Jesus

 

[ChavaK]

But you can remain a Jew and believe in Jesus

Of course....there is no opting out of being a Jew.
However, one's religion can be different than one's ethnic identification.

 

[visionary]

But you can remain a Jew and believe in Jesus

Elijah never did a Eucharistic cup nor did Yeshua institute or sanction it. You may think this is just semantics, but it is more than a cultural difference, it is the difference between pagan ritual that in later years took on a "chirstian garb", and a prophecy of scripture in the Judaism faith brought forth every Passover Seder..

 

[Peacedove]

Of course....there is no opting out of being a Jew.
However, one's religion can be different than one's ethnic identification.

Sorry, I was being a little tongue in cheek. It just makes me so cross when I hear people say that a Jew must give up his Jewishness to become a christian. What rubbish. So I guess I take every opportunity I can to say that a Jew does not have to stop being a Jew to become a christian.

 

[Heber]

Elijah never did a Eucharistic cup nor did Yeshua institute or sanction it. You may think this is just semantics, but it is more than a cultural difference, it is the difference between pagan ritual that in later years took on a "chirstian garb", and a prophecy of scripture in the Judaism faith brought forth every Passover Seder..

Please explain the 1 Corinthians 11 section that deals with Communion aka Eucharist, Mass, the Lord's Supper, the Last Supper etc. I find your description that it is a "pagan ritual that in later years took on a 'chirstian garb (sic)'" quite offensive.

 

[visionary]

Please explain the 1 Corinthians 11 section that deals with Communion aka Eucharist, Mass, the Lord's Supper, the Last Supper etc. I find your description that it is a "pagan ritual that in later years took on a 'chirstian garb (sic)'" quite offensive.

Study the Elijah cup..

The cup of Elijah derives from a problem in Talmudic Law. The problem is not knowing exactly how many cups of wine to drink at the Seder, four or five. The number of cups is based on the four expressions of deliverance, but there is actually a fifth expression of deliverance.

So, the rabbis came up with the perfect Jewish compromise. We fill the fifth cup, but we don't drink from it. And since Elijah will proceed the Messiah, who will be able to tell us whether four or five cups are correct, we make the fifth cup of wine Elijah's cup.

http://judaism.about.com/od/passove1/f/elijah_why.htm

Now if Yeshua is using the Elijah cup.. which expression of deliverance was it?

 

[Heber]

You were speaking in derogatory terms about Christian communion being a pagan feast with no scriptural warrant.

 

[Devri]

I called it my transformation.. Every step is one step closer.

Very well...I like that! From now on I will call it transformation instead of conversion. I had never thought of that word but it does indeed describe it more completely.

Thank you!

 

[Devri]

That is precisely why it isn't conversion. You have not changed G_ds. All the rest is how you relate to G_d and he relates to you, but it is Yeshua - the same G_d (in simple terms, without getting too complicated).

I now understand. I am being "transformed."

 

[Heber]

Very well...I like that! From now on I will call it transformation instead of conversion. I had never thought of that word but it does indeed describe it more completely.

Thank you!

 

[visionary]

You were speaking in derogatory terms about Christian communion being a pagan feast with no scriptural warrant.

no... the derogatory terms were used to describe what Yeshua was doing.

 

[Heber]

Elijah never did a Eucharistic cup nor did Yeshua institute or sanction it. You may think this is just semantics, but it is more than a cultural difference, it is the difference between pagan ritual that in later years took on a "chirstian garb", and a prophecy of scripture in the Judaism faith brought forth every Passover Seder..

This clearly relates to Communion (Eucharist) which you claim Yeshua did not institute or sanction and, secondly, you relate to it as 'the difference between pagan ritual that in later years took on a chirstian garb(sic)'.

There is no way that does not attack Communion (Eucharist). It is very explicit, given the use of a term that came into use post-NT.

 

[visionary]

This clearly relates to Communion (Eucharist) which you claim Yeshua did not institute or sanction and, secondly, you relate to it as 'the difference between pagan ritual that in later years took on a chirstian garb(sic)'.

There is no way that does not attack Communion (Eucharist). It is very explicit, given the use of a term that came into use post-NT.

I would question the translation.. a good Jew, Paul would never call it communion, that is a roman religious term, not Jewish. Yeshua would never do something outside of Judaism because He is the Jewish Messiah. If Yeshua performed a roman religious ritual, his disciples would have fled the room in a heart beat. Everything that happened at the Passover seder was within keeping with customs and Yeshua elaborated as a good Rabbi does.

 

[Heber]

I would question the translation.. a good Jew, Paul would never call it communion, that is a roman religious term, not Jewish. Yeshua would never do something outside of Judaism because He is the Jewish Messiah. If Yeshua performed a roman religious ritual, his disciples would have fled the room in a heart beat. Everything that happened at the Passover seder was within keeping with customs and Yeshua elaborated as a good Rabbi does.

Yeshua didn't call it communion as I am sure you know - that name came into use much later, as I have already pointed out. If you stop twisting around the question, you will see that you used the word eucharist which is the Christian communion etc (I purposely gave it several names so it was clear what I was saying). The act that you referred to as Eucharist is the celebration of the meal Yeshua had with his disciples, as described in the gospels and 1 Corinthians, by the Church. You also introduced the 'Church' into what you wrote, not me, so it was very clear what you were saying - neither of those terms was a figment of my imagination.

You then said that Yeshua had not instituted the celebration of his last meal with his disciples and then you proceeded to call that celebration something whose origins were pagan. That is offensive and requires an apology. You are not permitted on here to make derogatory remarks about the Christian faith in this way.

 

[Huram Abi]

Unless he was The Elijah?

He did the eucharust blessing with the elijah gobblet so we'd think about it?

If you are talking about the tradition of the 5th Sedar cup, the idea wasn't started until the 11th century and not made a tradition until after the 14th.

It wasn't even until the 17th century that the custom of placing Elijah's cup on the seder table began to appear in the Ashkenazic rite.

So, you are mistaken to believe there is any single object or idol such as "the Elijah goblet" or that Jesus drank from it in 32 CE.

Is there any specific psychological need you are trying to fulfill by forcing Jesus to be Elijah in your mind? What is the point?

 

[visionary]

Yeshua didn't call it communion as I am sure you know - that name came into use much later, as I have already pointed out. If you stop twisting around the question, you will see that you used the word eucharist which is the Christian communion etc (I purposely gave it several names so it was clear what I was saying). The act that you referred to as Eucharist is the celebration of the meal Yeshua had with his disciples, as described in the gospels and 1 Corinthians, by the Church. You also introduced the 'Church' into what you wrote, not me, so it was very clear what you were saying - neither of those terms was a figment of my imagination.

You then said that Yeshua had not instituted the celebration of his last meal with his disciples and then you proceeded to call that celebration something whose origins were pagan. That is offensive and requires an apology. You are not permitted on here to make derogatory remarks about the Christian faith in this way.

I never said the Yeshua didn't have his last supper with the disciples or be a Rabbi and teach more meaning into the seder. You are the one offended that I prefer Jewish terms and not roman terms to describe what Jews, included Yeshua did. Romans have no problem stating that they borrowed from here and yonder and with it made new combinations. Even RCC today will tell you that if they deem it necessary they will still do it. They will even provide examples of the latest endeavors including calling God Allah. Jews on the other hand were very restrictive to make sure that didn't happen.

 

[visionary]

If you are talking about the tradition of the 5th Sedar cup, the idea wasn't started until the 11th century and not made a tradition until after the 14th.

It wasn't even until the 17th century that the custom of placing Elijah's cup on the seder table began to appear in the Ashkenazic rite.

So, you are mistaken to believe there is any single object or idol such as "the Elijah goblet" or that Jesus drank from it in 32 CE.

Is there any specific psychological need you are trying to fulfill by forcing Jesus to be Elijah in your mind? What is the point?

Elijah is the messenger before the Messiah.. Therefore it was a way of looking for the day when "Elijah" would come and make way for the Jewish Messianic era. Yeshua using that cup is pure conjecture. He was more likely to use the "redemption" cup. As that was He calling with His first coming.

The third cup of wine is taken after the meal. It is the cup of redemption, which reminds us of the shed blood of the innocent Lamb which brought our redemption from Egypt. We see that Jesus took the third cup in Luke 22:20 and 1 Corinthians 11:25, "In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.'" This was not just any cup, it was the cup of redemption from slavery into freedom.

 

[Heber]

I never said the Yeshua didn't have his last supper with the disciples. You are the one offended that I prefer Jewish terms and not roman terms to describe what Jews, included Yeshua did. Romans have no problem stating that they borrowed from here and yonder and with it made new combinations. Even RCC today will tell you that if they deem it necessary they will still do it. They will even provide examples of the latest endeavors including calling God Allah. Jews on the other hand were very restrictive to make sure that didn't happen.

Will you please stop twisting words, when things get difficult for you! If you re-read what YOU wrote, you will see that YOU referred to the Eucharist, initially, not me. I took my comments from what you had already written. You have yet to comment on YOUR writing that says that it (the Eucharist) was not instituted by Yeshua but was a pagan feast taken over by the Christian Church.

 

[visionary]

Will you please stop twisting words, when things get difficult for you! If you re-read what YOU wrote, you will see that YOU referred to the Eucharist, initially, not me. I took my comments from what you had already written. You have yet to comment on YOUR writing that says that it (the Eucharist) was not instituted by Yeshua but was a pagan feast taken over by the Christian Church.

Never said christian church... I said christian garb... I did say Yeshua never instituted the Euchrist. That is a roman not Jewish thing.

 

[yedida]

My bad. I thought that conversion was brought up as a reason for rebaptism.

Not a "bad" really, that did come up. When the "baptism/mikveh" is more a joining of oneself to a new denomination/sect. But most of us don't consider those actions in the same light, not as a baptism unto salvation that one does as an act of faith and obedience. Those "baptisms" are more "into" Tikvah Israel's congregation/1st St. Baptist congregation, etc., and the responsibilities the baptisee is taking on to that local, physical body, not the "larger" picture. (I hope I worded this in a way that's understandable....)