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Messianic Judaism Considered Chrisitan?

Ahavah

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Hmmm..it is a strange thing, but I am unable to post here unless I have a Christian faith Icon.

I have a menorah Icon, but it's not considered "Christian"..so I can't post in a "Messianic" forum.
GO FIGURE. :doh:
Ohhh...Now I remember...It's because of the trinity thing. The Messianic "scroll" icon shows that you do believe in the Trinity. I got it. But then why...in the Messianic forum rules does it state that you don't have to really believe in the trinity, but yet wear a scoll icon?

Icon, schmicons... How confusing.

I say...create another SUB Forum for Messianics.
A place where anyone can talk no-matter what they believe. Maybe that would create too much unity??
Ohh..well...


I tried...Hello anyway Tishri.:wave:
And anyone else who I may know here.

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Ahavah

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Hi...Not all Messianic believers are Jews. Actually...MOST are gentiles. And..If you truly are a traditional Jew, then you are not Messianic, since Jews do not believe that Yeshua is the Messiah.
And about believing in the Trinity....Well....there are Many kinds of Messianic believers, but we won't get into that.
 
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United

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Hi...Not all Messianic believers are Jews. Actually...MOST are gentiles. And..If you truly are a traditional Jew, then you are not Messianic, since Jews do not believe that Yeshua is the Messiah.
And about believing in the Trinity....Well....there are Many kinds of Messianic believers, but we won't get into that.
Hi There Ahavah,

You kinda lost me there ... what defines a traditional Jew? I would expect that most Messianic Jews would strongly believe that ones belief in Yeshua does not stop one being a Jew.
 
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Ahavah

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Ok..That IS the BIG question of the Day...
What is a JEW?
Spiritually , Physically, or Religious etc...?
But that's besides the point.
How about we say HEBREW.
Anyone can CONVERT to Judaism, but to be a true Hebrew, and have Hebrew blood..that's a bit different.
I say call them Messianic Hebrews...but if they prefer Jews....so let them be. I have no problem with that.
My husband is Hebrew and was raised by his Jewish Grandfather. My husband just considers himself as a believing Hebrew. We do Jewish traditions, because of my husbands heritage. No biggie.

But my concern is about this Messianic forum..and why I can't post here.
 
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Rafael

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There are several factions within the Messianic community, but those tht believe in Jesus are more commonly known as "Messianic" as far as I am familiar.
"Jew" is representative of the " house of Judah", led by the tribe of Judah after Jacob's (Israel's) son. There were also bits and pieces of the other tribes by marriage and the house of Benjamin that were associated with the house of Judah which split with the house of Israel - the northern territory of Israel. The house of Israel and its 10 tribes rebelled against the King of Judah and split in civil war, just as God said they would do, and after a succession of evil kings, were carried off into captivity by Assyria many years before the house of Judah was taken into captivity by Babylon and carried off. The house of Judah would return, though, and bebuild the temple that Jesus visited in His life.
The covenant to Abraham was that from his seed he would become the father of many "hamon goyim" or (noisy) Gentile nations. Those are represented by the "house of Israel" which is the 10 tribes that were torn away from the inheritance of David because Solomon married so many foreign wives and allowed their baal -asheroth worship in Israel. Ephraim, the son of Joseph born in Egypt was the head of the lost sheep of the house of Israel that God said He would sift into the Gentile nations but not ever lose track of (Amos 9:9). Through Hosea (1:9-12), God told us that at a later date they would come forth once again in history as "Sons of the Living God" and reunite with their brother in the house of Judah. Ephraim was called and given the rights as the "firstborn of God" (Jer.3:19), and that should give us a good clue as to who the house of Israel and the house of Judah are today in history. The Church today is even referred to as the "Church of the firstborn" in Hebrews 12:23. This new revelation of God's covenant is to the house of Judah and the house of Israel according to Hebrews 8:6-10 and the day is coming when these two houses will be reunited under one King who was from the tribe of Judah - Jesus. Jacob's blessing to Judah was that the sceptre of headship would never pass from him (Gen. 49:10), but the firstborn rights went to Ephraim and Mannaseh with Ephraim going before.. It was through Ephraim and the house of Israel that the huge numbers of multilicity desribed in God's covenant with Abraham as, "stars in the sky" and "sands of the sea" would be reached. Not through just the two tribes of people in the house of Judah from where we get the term Jews - those descendants of the house of Judah who returned from captivity to rebuild the temple where Jesus came saying - "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt. 15:24). Jesus said He came to call this house out of the Gentile nations and said they would hear and follow His voice (John 10:16). The Bible is actually very careful in distinguishing between the two houses of Israel, but often, theologians have ran the two together and failed to see the seperate roles that they would play in coming together in God's plan for the end times and reunion
So, from the begining, God has had a plan to make all people elligible as God's chosen people and family, but not just through the Jews, but also through the house of Israel inside the Gentile nations where they would become a particularly powerful nation that would come to the aid of their brother Judah in the last days, as Isaiah and the prophets foretold . It was said by the prophets that this nation or nations would "possess the gates of their enemies" and have the fat of the land to live on but would forsake their faith in the end and come under judgment by God once again. The alien lands once again, as once was before, would rise up and bring judgment upon them for unbelief. Micah speaks of this in chapter 5 saying that their tall images would be knocked down and that their cities filed with sorery would be destroyed as early judgments. before the great tribulation of days. As in the former days of Israel being judged, when Israel and Judah were carried off into captivity by their enemies, history tries to repeat itself, but It won't happen again, though, as a remnant of both houses will live because of the abiding faith living within them by God's Holy Spirit. They will see the Lord's return and restoration of all things on the earth for a last final day of 1000 years - the millinnium
Throughout the Old Testament, te prophets speak of the reunion of the two witnesses to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Few acknowledge this, but a second exodus has happened by those Sons of the Living God coming out of the Gentile nations to once again put aside their differences with their brother, Judah. Together, they will become the family of God along with their companions - the grafted in branches Paul speaks of in his letter to Romans.

Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. 13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. 14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

JER 23:7-8 Therefore behold, the days are coming," declares the Lord, "when they will no longer say, &#8216;As the Lord lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of Egypt,&#8217; but, &#8216;As the Lord lives, who brought up and led back the descendants of the household of Israel from the north land and from all the countries where I had driven them.&#8217; Then they will live on their own soil.

EZE 39:27-28 When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord their God because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer.

Jer 3:18 In those days the house of Judah will walk with the house of Israel, and they will come together from the land of the north to the land that I gave your fathers as an inheritance.

Zech.9:13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man. 14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

Amos 9:9 "For surely I will command, And will sift the house of Israel among all nations, As grain is sifted in a sieve; Yet not the smallest grain shall fall to the ground.

Judah's sceptre:
Ge 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Ephraim's promise:
Gen. 48:18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

Jeremiah 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Hebrews 8:6 ¶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hosea 1:9 Then God said: "Call his name Lo-Ammi, For you are not My people, And I will not be your God.
10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, &#8216;You are not My people,&#8217; There it shall be said to them, &#8216;You are sons of the living God.&#8217;
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
 
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Shimshon

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Judah's sceptre:
Ge 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.


I like this one. "until Shiloh come;" Shiloh represents the Mashiach, the Messiah. Yehuda did reign until Messiah came. The Torah given Moshe was the way God reconciled Yisrael to himself. But when Messiah came and became high preist, created a new tabernacle for mankind, and transformed the way God reconciled people to himself, then Yehuda's sceptre, the Torah given Moshe was transformed from a Law for moral instruction and as a body of cultural - national practice which would point forward to the Messiah's work, to the law of the Kingdom that had commenced with Yeshua's accention.

Basicly, in a nutshell. A Jew is one who is bound by the Torah given Moshe. It defines who we are and who we will become. Born from Abraham through Jacob, given instructions (Torah) on how to be God's children. AND told throughout the instructions about the coming of Messiah, Shiloh. Who will further instruct us to who we will become. Namley, sons of God through the New covenant made through Mashiach, the anointed One.

The latter is usually rejected by todays orthodox Jews. They hold tight to the law given through Moses but do not hold to the Kingdom Torah given through Yeshua.

This is where Messianic Jews fit in. They are Jews by the above definition, as defined through Torah. Born from Abraham through Jacob and 'were' given Torah through Moshe. But through faith they have believed in the message the Messiah gave. They 'as Jews' believe that Yeshua was in fact the promised Messiah and that His instructions while with us are as binding as the instructions he gave Israel back at Sinai.

The instructions don't cancel out each other either. THey don't 'replace' one another. But are transformed to fit the Kingdom at hand. No longer Yisrael proper but the whole earth is filled with his Glory now. And soon the complete fulfillment of the Kingdom will be reached and death will be swallowed up.

Today's Messianic movment is about Jews who understand the message Yeshua (Jesus) gave and have placed faith in it. By the grace of God.

And many gentiles are completely in love with a Jewish form of worship and rightly so. But many in the movment teach that gentiles should hold to Jewish customs by the leading of the Spirit. That the gift of the Spirit was given to lead all the world to follow the Torah as given Moshe. And that is completely meshugena.

Yet, it's the current situation in the MJ Forums here.
 
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Teke

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Messianic is a word that has taken many different meanings in christianity.
Orthodox Jews consider themselves Messianic, in that they believe in the Messiah. That is not to say they agree He has come.

Christians who call themselves Messianic are offensive to Orthodox Judaism.
You are either an Orthodox Christian or an Orthodox Jew. A Messianic christian is one who is confused about their beliefs, from an Orthodox perspective.

You can't stand in an either or position. Either you practice Judaism to it's fullness or you do not. Orthodox Judaism is not a buffet to pick and choose what you will from it's table and take it to mean what you wish.
I believe that translates to "poser".
 
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Shimshon

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sir, I am in no way confused about my family's Jewish ancestry. And I am in no way 'posing' as a Jew. God made me part of that bloodline no matter what Orthodox people may say or think.

My whole life somebody is trying to tell me i'm not Jewish or a poser. Even my own people. So coming from you it's like, well ....the same ol poison being shoveled out by another foolish person.


It is o.k for me to NOT be an orthodox Jew is it? Will my Jewish fathers consider me a goy? Well not my physical ones, but maybe you would. It seems you have the nerve to.

I am a hebrew, and so not confused nor posing. I know just who I am in Yeshua. But you...well, I'll leave that for others to plainly see. God help you.
 
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Teke

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sir, I am in no way confused about my family's Jewish ancestry. And I am in no way 'posing' as a Jew. God made me part of that bloodline no matter what Orthodox people may say or think.

My whole life somebody is trying to tell me i'm not Jewish or a poser. Even my own people. So coming from you it's like, well ....the same ol poison being shoveled out by another foolish person.


It is o.k for me to NOT be an orthodox Jew is it? Will my Jewish fathers consider me a goy? Well not my physical ones, but maybe you would. It seems you have the nerve to.

I am a hebrew, and so not confused nor posing. I know just who I am in Yeshua. But you...well, I'll leave that for others to plainly see. God help you.

I believe you missed the point of my post.
If your a Jew by genealogy, you are naturally a Messianic. As all Jews believe in the Messiah. Just, as I said, some believe he hasn't come yet. ie. Orthodox Judaism, those believing in a literal coming..
Others believe the Messiah is metaphorical.

A true Messianic (Jewish) Christain believes He has already come and He is Jesus Christ.
IOW if your not a Jew, but call yourself a Messianic christian, you are posing as a Jewish christian. When in reality you are simply a christian.
Messianic christian=Jewish christian, not anybody who wants to call themselves Messianic christians.

There are many who call themselves Messianic christian who are not Jews. (reminds one of 2:9 and 3:9 on those who say they are Jews and are not, IOW being deceptive)

Before you jump to conclusions about what one is saying, perhaps you should understand what was said first. Then get offended if it's offensive to you.
 
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Shimshon

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I believe you missed the point of my post.

Before you jump to conclusions about what one is saying, perhaps you should understand what was said first. Then get offended if it's offensive to you.

I believe your right. Please forgive me. I agree with what you have said about Messianics. I am sorry I misunderstood your first post and it's intent.

I am so often attacked here by both sides of the fence. Both Christians, Jews and the posers you mention endlessly try to eradicate all my Hebrew ancestry through defining for themselves just who a Jew is. It's been this way for most my life. I am very sorry to have misunderstood your intent, especially when I agree with it..

:blush:

IOW if your not a Jew, but call yourself a Messianic christian, you are posing as a Jewish christian. When in reality you are simply a christian.
Messianic christian=Jewish christian, not anybody who wants to call themselves Messianic christians.
I agree whole heartedly.
 
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Teke

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I believe your right. Please forgive me. I agree with what you have said about Messianics. I am sorry I misunderstood your first post and it's intent.

I am so often attacked here by both sides of the fence. Both Christians, Jews and the posers you mention endlessly try to eradicate all my Hebrew ancestry through defining for themselves just who a Jew is. It's been this way for most my life. I am very sorry to have misunderstood your intent, especially when I agree with it..

:blush:

I agree whole heartedly.

And you are rightly offended by such. Not to mention that it makes things confusing for the rest of us. ie. who's who and of what

Least hopefully you now see why Orthodox Jews as well as Orthodox Christians are offended by such confusion. And yet they both, tho not in full agreement, are respectful of one another.

God just wants us to be who and what He created us to be. Nothing more.:holy:
 
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