Messianic Judaism and Ethiopian Orthodoxy

[Hadassah]

zhilan,

I have to agree with Visionary, 'Once bitten; twice shy'.
But that doesn't excuse harsh words.. I apologise if any of us came off harsh!

Everyone is welcome in our corner of the forums, absolutely with open arms welcome.

There are of course theological differences, but people are welcome.

Main arguments against the Catholic faith, be it Russian Orthodoxy, Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Orthodoxy or "catholicism" in general are the same main reasons that protestantism began, as well as other underlying issues such as the horrors that were extended at the hands of the differing Catholic groups throughout history.

Some of our families got it two fold - you become a believer and then have to chose "Catholic" or "Lutheran" or if the choice availed itself - one of the Anabaptist groups... and in times past, one was not only hassled or killed for being Jewish, but having different flavor to your faith, or different liturgy...


Messianics on a whole are generally (though not always) trying to move past the protestant movement and begin again where christianity split from Nazarean beliefs back around the death of the disciples and the apostle Sha'ul.

Liturgy is great, if it agrees with scripture.


Like Wags said, many believers who go to church obey Torah to varying degrees.

But if we step back and go "am I following the commands as I should" Most of us (self included) often find reasons of logic why these things don't have to be done, when they are things that are to be done in the diaspora; which is different from things that can only be done in The Land.

When we do that, we are really slipping up. I find myself doing it and I have to really stop and give pause to find out why I didn't do what I knew I should, and correct it.


To answer your question: The main contentions are generally with the modus operandi; not the people involved.

But, this does not give an excuse to behave rashly or speak ill words about what goes on.

I think it would be great if we can talk about what kinds of things are done within your group and what we do - and we can surely have a lively (yet peaceable) discussion about the differences in our practices and liturgy without bending or breaking any of the forum rules.

I'm sure most of us would be interested!

 

[Wags]

As I've been trying to say, there is no reason they wouldn't. And I pointed out the Ethiopians for just this purpose. The Ethiopians believe in 7th day sabbath worship, they believe in dietary laws, they believe in purity laws, they believe in circumscision, they believe men and women must sit on opposite sides of the church and that women must cover their heads, they believe that we must take off our shoes when entering holy ground, they believe in Torah observance and they are fully a part of Orthodoxy.

I just don't understand why there is not room for an liturigical Christians here. I love the OT, I love the Torah, I love the NT...I dont think I'm so horrible...

But if there is no room for me, I suppose I can mosey on out....

Ethiopians used to believe and keep the Shabbat - but other influences have removed them from Shabbat and they keep Sunday. Usually only the men attend church. So the women resort to the local witch doctor for their religious practice.

Even the catholic church uses practices that are jewish in origion - afterall all of christianity has its roots in judaism whether they want to admit it or not. But they have taken these practices and turned them to their own uses - and they are barely recognnizable for what they once were.

As others have said - if a certain belief/action - is an inherrant part of a denominations belief system, and if that belief is contrary to torah then it would be very hard to stay with in that denomination if you are wanting to follow Torah.

I think what distinguishs Torah observant messianics from christians who keep bits of Torah accidently is intent. Torah observant messainics intend to observe Torah, they embrace it and like King David find it to be sweeter than honey.

 

[Sephania]

I got my IDF hat on so y'all better listen up.

This thread was split off from another so zhilan could explore a question she has, that of what does EO have in common with MJ, not our differences, that is obvious, and has been flambed to death in many a thread on CF. This is not the place to do that. This is a place to find what we have in common and built on that.

When you just meet someone for the first time and want to get to know them, do you say, 'Hey, I like your car, I always wanted one of those' or would you say, 'That's a cool car, but you choose the wrong color'.

It is natural to discuss similarities when people first meet, then when they get to know each other the differences can be talked about with a basic foundation of who they are already. Let's abide by that here. Let's get to know what we have in common, and fellowship with that, because anything else IS debate, wither you mean it or not. Just like they ( other icons) can ask us questions , the same goes for us. OK? This is not a place to post any formal beliefs of the church.

Let's play nice, to learn and grow, because this is the only warning I am giving in this thread, if it doesn't continue in this vein of fellowship then it will be closed permenatly, and probably not without some parting gifts

of warnings given out.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I'm still wondering why Orthodoxy would be incompatible if the issue at heart is Torah observance. As I pointed out, the Ethiopian Orthodox already don't eat pork, circumscize, often worship on Saturday (or both), follow OT laws on menstration, etc so clearly a Torah observant lifestyle is possible within the realms of Orthodoxy. What is it that prevents the from being acceptable to you?

I think in Orthodoxy there is a lot more Jewish influence than in Catholicism. Even in "typical" Orthodoxy (such as Greek Orthodox etc) certain cannons such as fasting rules say that we cannot keep a full fast on the Sabbath in observance of OT laws.

I'm not trying to suggest all MJs should adopt Orthodoxy or anything, I'm just asking why Torah observance is not compatiable with ligurgical Christianity, especially Orthodoxy.

Wanted to say that I think the thread you've made here is rather brilliant. From what I've been able to observe over the years, there've been MANY Messianic Jews who've found the world of Orthodoxy to be one of the best expressions for what they feel the Jewish culture was centered around. When it comes to Eastern Orthodoxy or Oriental Orthodxy (i.e. Coptic, Ethopian, Syrian, Indian, etc),I've met/dialouged with PLENTY who are some of the most loving, caring and informed people I've ever witnessed...and I've learned much from them over the years. The Eastern Mindset toward spirituality is something that is often missed in the Western world---and much of it is often directly in line with how early Jewish culture would've operated. As is it, there are many coming from a Hasidic Jewish background that end up going into the liturgical circles of Orthodoxy (as well as Catholisicm) because of the fact that they feel it seems more similar to how the early church would've operated. On where more was shared on the issue, one can go here to #33.

There was actually a book I was able to read on the subject that was very beautiful in content. It was recommended to me by the rabbi of the Messianic Jewish fellowship I attend (in light of how he was an Eastern Orthodox monk for a good bit)---and the name of the book is entitled "Orthodox Worship: A Living Continuity With the Temple, the Synagogue and the Early Church" ( ).

The issue of Ethiopian Orthodoxy and Messianic Judaism seems to come together for me whenever I consider what occurs in the West Indies...especially as it concerns things in regards to the Regaee/Rastafarian culture. Much of the ideology---especially as it concerns those who were West Indian Jews and felt a strong connection to Judaism---based their concepts of the Messiah in what the Ethopian Orthodox church was about. More of this was discussed elsewhere in another thread I made when it came to a mission trip I took to Jamaica...entitled Reggae Righteousness: Seeing Ones that are both Messianic Jewish & Rastas for Christ?


As I'll be going back to Jamaica this Saturday for another mission trip, the issue of Ethopian Orthodoxy and its connections to Judaism in the West Indies is sure to come up again. Its truly amazing to see how Ethopian Orthodoxy and Messianic Judaism overlap on many issues...especially as it concerns the issue of foods/diet. Thankfully, if I run across any Messianic Jews looking into Orthodoxy, I can always refer them to the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.....for those interested in trying to be Biblical with food laws would probably feel most comfortable with them. For more on that, one can can try to look in the Fetha Nagast, an Ethiopian collection of secular and ecclesiastical laws. The former used to be observed in the Ethiopian Empire (until Emperor Haile Selassie who issued a new law, based, however, on the FN). The latter are still observed in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church...and the book can be ordered from Amazon.com . Large portions of it can be downloaded from EthiopianOrthodox.org (part 1) and part 2.

 

[DennisTate]

I'm still wondering why Orthodoxy would be incompatible if the issue at heart is Torah observance. As I pointed out, the Ethiopian Orthodox already don't eat pork, circumscize, often worship on Saturday (or both), follow OT laws on menstration, etc so clearly a Torah observant lifestyle is possible within the realms of Orthodoxy. What is it that prevents the from being acceptable to you?

I think in Orthodoxy there is a lot more Jewish influence than in Catholicism. Even in "typical" Orthodoxy (such as Greek Orthodox etc) certain cannons such as fasting rules say that we cannot keep a full fast on the Sabbath in observance of OT laws.

Why can't someone be liturgical and Torah observant?

zhilan.....would you say that perhaps the presence of the Ark of the Covenant may have played a significant role in helping the Ethiopian people to be so strong in their observance of Judaism?




Here is a quotation from Dr. Grant R. Jeffrey on this fascinating topic:


//In a September 1935, article in the National Geographic magazine, L. Roberts recorded his interviews with various priests in different parts of Ethiopia who consistently told the same story. They recounted that the Queen of Sheba had visited King Solomon and had had "a child", Menelik I. Solomon educated the lad in Jerusalem until he was nineteen years old. The boy then returned to Ethiopia with a large group of Jews, taking with him the true Ark of the Covenant.....


//The Ethiopian official national epic known as the Glory of the Kings (Kebra-Nagasi) contains an amazing story which offers an explanation of what happened to the Ark of the Covenant. In addition, there are several Ethiopian murals which tell how the Ark and the Tablets of the Law were taken to Ethiopia for safekeeping by Prince Menelik I.

..... The Queen of Sheba, his mother, had died and the prince prepared to leave Jerusalem to return twenty-five hundred miles to his native country to become its king.


Prince Menelik bore an uncanny resemblance in beauty and regal bearing to his father. King Solomon wanted to give him a replica of the Ark to take with him to Ethiopia because the long distance would prevent him from ever again worshipping at the temple in Jerusalem.

However Prince Menelik was concerned with the growing apostasy of Israel and the fact that his father, Solomon was now allowing idols to be placed in the Temple to please his pagan wives. King Solomon gave the prince a going-away banquet and after the priests were filled with wine, Menelik and his loyal associates switched arks and left the replica in its place in the Holy of Holies.// (Grant Jeffrey, [page 115, Armageddon, Appointment with Destiny).

 

[pat34lee]

Ethiopia never had the ark. There is an empty room where they say the ark is located. Do you really think somebody could just sneak it out of the holy of holies and walk it out of Jerusalem, much less Israel?

 

[DennisTate]

Ethiopia never had the ark. There is an empty room where they say the ark is located. Do you really think somebody could just sneak it out of the holy of holies and walk it out of Jerusalem, much less Israel?

If it was the will of G-d for them to do this...........yes!!!!!!!!

 

[janwoG]

I must add the custom of circumcising boys in the Ethiopian Church at the eighth
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day after birth.

 

[Mike Anthony]

Since we're on the subject of the Ark. I'm kind of bringing us back to conversation about orthodox icons. Not trying to bring back any negative vibes or anything its just I questioned the churches use of icon myself. But when I ask them about it they bring up the graven image of Cherubs on the ark. Which are similar to the icon because instead of these cherubs being worshipped, they are portayed as worshipping the ivisible presence of G-d with isreal. Symbolizing the hamony of isreal prayers with the prayers of the heavenly host. In orthodoxy the icons reminds us of the heavenly host of saints and angles who worship with us, and not worshipped by us.

 

[visionary]

Is the image's toes kissed?

 

[Mike Anthony]

Technically no, they didn't kiss the cherubs but they were at the center of first temple worship. Moses taught that G-d's presence rested on the mercy seatthat was in between the cherubs. Why have ingraven images so close to G-d's presence.
Christ is the image of the invisible G-d but he's also a man of flesh and blood. The church teaches that because he was man we can put him in icons. If one keeps a photo of a dead loved one its not considered idolatry. If they kiss the photo its just an act of remorse and keeping their memory. Of course there's a big differenc of kissing photos and icons i surpose, since we treat it some what as a sacriment.

 

[visionary]

Technically no, they didn't kiss the cherubs but they were at the center of first temple worship. Moses taught that G-d's presence rested on the mercy seatthat was in between the cherubs. Why have ingraven images so close to G-d's presence.
Christ is the image of the invisible G-d but he's also a man of flesh and blood. The church teaches that because he was man we can put him in icons. If one keeps a photo of a dead loved one its not considered idolatry. If they kiss the photo its just an act of remorse and keeping their memory. Of course there's a big differenc of kissing photos and icons i surpose, since we treat it some what as a sacriment.

I am talking about the icons you have at your church, are their toes kissed, do people bow down before them in petition?

 

[Mike Anthony]

Yes they kiss the feet of the icon