Are Jewish Christians now Messianic Jews or is there a difference between the two.
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Messianic Jews
- Thread starter A.J.
- Start date
Short and Sweet, I will give you another answer from one of our members on a different thread:
1) you're Jewish (defination elsewhere)
2) you believe Yeshua (a.k.a. Jesus) is the Messiah according to the T'NaKah and K'tuvim Natzrim (a.k.a. New Testament)
3) you believe in, are growing in or are observing the Torah (a.k.a. Law of Moses) as can be kept today without the Temple (often loosely defined, usually by people who don't want any of Torah and just enough Tradition to make them "feel" Jewish)
Those who are all the above but are not Jewish are Messianic Gentiles.
The main differences are following Torah or Following Church tradtions.
1) you're Jewish (defination elsewhere)
2) you believe Yeshua (a.k.a. Jesus) is the Messiah according to the T'NaKah and K'tuvim Natzrim (a.k.a. New Testament)
3) you believe in, are growing in or are observing the Torah (a.k.a. Law of Moses) as can be kept today without the Temple (often loosely defined, usually by people who don't want any of Torah and just enough Tradition to make them "feel" Jewish)
Those who are all the above but are not Jewish are Messianic Gentiles.
The main differences are following Torah or Following Church tradtions.
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The main differences are following Torah or Following Church tradtions.
And this is why I said it was mostly a cultural difference in that same thread.
There is no indication that the Lord views either group preferentially, therefore the differences are minimal. If this makes our blood boil then pride is crouching at the door.
Besides....much of the observance of Torah by many messianic fellowships is defined by RABBINIC judaism! How is that better than blood bought saints who add gentile (pagan) traditions?
Answer: it isn't...but it is more culturally jewish.
And I wouldn't consider myself a messianic "gentile". Just messianic. A new creation.
There is a blessing found in observance of the Sabbath and the Feast Days that simply can not be explained. It starts with a physical release from the world but translates into spiritual depth and richness. No amount of explanation will satisfy a "christian's" curiosity. It simply has to be "done" to be understood.
However, this observance can not make us "more righteous" than the worst ham-eating Sunday worshipper on Easter because our righteousness is in Adonai Tsidkeinu.
We separate ourselves from the larger body to our peril.
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simchat_torah
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I know that sounds ridiculous....but do you think that no one in the church was also guided by HaShem?
So here is the point again;
We, messianics, are part of both communities....like it or not. I don't accept everything the church has added to my faith because much of it is merely cultural (and therefore unnecessary)
I feel the same way about rabbinic traditions. I have no problem with christians being "culturally" christian or messianics being "culturally" jewish but I do hope that we know the difference.
For instance, no where in the Bible does it say that a cheeseburger is not kosher. That is rabbinical. Doesn't make it wrong..but it is a cultural expression of faith.
No where in the Bible is the "sacrament" of communion institued outside of the context of a Passover seder. But there is nothing wrong with that either....
But to assume that only jewish sages heard from God is meshugganah
So here is the point again;
We, messianics, are part of both communities....like it or not. I don't accept everything the church has added to my faith because much of it is merely cultural (and therefore unnecessary)
I feel the same way about rabbinic traditions. I have no problem with christians being "culturally" christian or messianics being "culturally" jewish but I do hope that we know the difference.
For instance, no where in the Bible does it say that a cheeseburger is not kosher. That is rabbinical. Doesn't make it wrong..but it is a cultural expression of faith.
No where in the Bible is the "sacrament" of communion institued outside of the context of a Passover seder. But there is nothing wrong with that either....
But to assume that only jewish sages heard from God is meshugganah
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Hmm, yes a cheeseburger is Rabbinical ( as well we are talking two different kinds of cows already ) Thank you L-rd! ( I love cheeseburgers) Now though as far as the communion; when it is taken so far that it is worshipped and held above all in a ( sorry I gotta say this) pagan manner of injesting the g-d then I have to say it is more than cultural, it is dangerous and not what Yeshua taught. This is not cultural, but a mixing of cultures, of Judaism into the Pagan religions of the time, and is a well documented fact. The L-rd was very strick in the Torah about mixing two of a different kind, and I believe this is part of it. The seed of G-d should not be mixed with the seed of the serpent, there is much danger in this.
Now I am not saying this because I want to put up a wall, because I believe that there are many in the churches that don't know any better, they are not Bereans, Sh'aul exhorted those who truly want to follow the L-rd G-d of Israel to test everything! against what he said in his word, including I believe all that Paul told them. this was to learn , but there are many that either blindly follow what the priest or pastor or whoever is over them preach and not check for themselves or they just don't care. There needs to be a whinnowing out of the tares from the wheat, and people can do this themselves. To learn wht is tov and what is not.
No, I don't believe that only the Jewish men heard from HaShem, but that doesn't mean that everything that the Founding father heard was from him either. Such as the L-rds feasts and foods and Sabbath were from the devil. No, I don't believe that was a word from above.
) Thank you L-rd! ( I love cheeseburgers) Now though as far as the communion; when it is taken so far that it is worshipped and held above all in a ( sorry I gotta say this) pagan manner of injesting the g-d then I have to say it is more than cultural, it is dangerous and not what Yeshua taught. This is not cultural, but a mixing of cultures, of Judaism into the Pagan religions of the time, and is a well documented fact. The L-rd was very strick in the Torah about mixing two of a different kind, and I believe this is part of it. The seed of G-d should not be mixed with the seed of the serpent, there is much danger in this.Now I am not saying this because I want to put up a wall, because I believe that there are many in the churches that don't know any better, they are not Bereans, Sh'aul exhorted those who truly want to follow the L-rd G-d of Israel to test everything! against what he said in his word, including I believe all that Paul told them. this was to learn , but there are many that either blindly follow what the priest or pastor or whoever is over them preach and not check for themselves or they just don't care. There needs to be a whinnowing out of the tares from the wheat, and people can do this themselves. To learn wht is tov and what is not.
No, I don't believe that only the Jewish men heard from HaShem, but that doesn't mean that everything that the Founding father heard was from him either. Such as the L-rds feasts and foods and Sabbath were from the devil. No, I don't believe that was a word from above.
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simchat_torah
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simchat_torah
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My point is, it's more than a cultural thing, some of us believe that HaShem has guided them to make some of their halacha.
Halacha is not a cultural matter. HaShem instituted the Beit Din, and if you are a part of that community, by law (torah) you must follow the halachic decisions of that beit din.
until you consider:
1) It was pesach Y'shua spoke of
2) The pagan origins of the communion rites
I never stated that.
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Here's a "christian" sage who said a wise thing
In essentials unity...
Non-essentials liberty...
In all things charity.... Augustine
I'm sure if we looked into Augustine's life we would find some blemishes....maybe worse. But I would consider him more a part of my heritage than Maimonides because he did at least confess to believe in the Messiah of Israel. Messianics have a jewish AND a christian heritage to draw on. Not all of it is good on either side.
It is to our detriment that we would distance ourselves from the church over cultural differences.
We expect the church to honor and respect historical Israel (and they should)...yet Israel behaved no better than the church has over the centuries.
The church won't admit their faults for the most part, and that is a pride issue, but it doesn't really take a rocket scientist to know that Israel was in rebellion for most of it's history also.
So again....why would we have any boasting except in the Lord?
Does halacha really impress G-d?
I don't think so. It makes you healthier than the average Baptist at a picnic. Period.
I can argue against my theory as well as any of you with Psalm 18:24. I am certainly not speaking against obedience to the L-rd or against the Torah.
But in the big picture we are all pretty much level in comparison to Him....so it seems that we could be a bit more graceful to those who have chosen "Christian" instead of "Messianic"
After all, it's their loss.
In essentials unity...
Non-essentials liberty...
In all things charity.... Augustine
I'm sure if we looked into Augustine's life we would find some blemishes....maybe worse. But I would consider him more a part of my heritage than Maimonides because he did at least confess to believe in the Messiah of Israel. Messianics have a jewish AND a christian heritage to draw on. Not all of it is good on either side.
It is to our detriment that we would distance ourselves from the church over cultural differences.
We expect the church to honor and respect historical Israel (and they should)...yet Israel behaved no better than the church has over the centuries.
The church won't admit their faults for the most part, and that is a pride issue, but it doesn't really take a rocket scientist to know that Israel was in rebellion for most of it's history also.
So again....why would we have any boasting except in the Lord?
Does halacha really impress G-d?
I don't think so. It makes you healthier than the average Baptist at a picnic. Period.
I can argue against my theory as well as any of you with Psalm 18:24. I am certainly not speaking against obedience to the L-rd or against the Torah.
But in the big picture we are all pretty much level in comparison to Him....so it seems that we could be a bit more graceful to those who have chosen "Christian" instead of "Messianic"
After all, it's their loss.
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