messianic jew doesnt means they are Christians

[greenboy]

I know some messianic jew are not Chritians, and I want to know how many have a Messiah out there and their name, recently we were in a Bible study and this came up. Messianic Jew do not means the Messiah is Christ, I know one case (which I don't want to name) but please educate me about others. God Bless!!!

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I know some messianic jew are not Chritians, and I want to know how many have a Messiah out there and their name, recently we were in a Bible study and this came up. Messianic Jew do not means the Messiah is Christ, I know one case (which I don't want to name) but please educate me about others. God Bless!!!

As far as I know all Messianic Jews are believers in Yeshua (Jesus) as Messiah, hence the name Messianic Jew. Christian is the name of a religion...just because one goes to a Christian church does not mean they have put their faith and trust in Jesus as Messiah. I believe that most Messianics will say they are "not christian" because unlike many/most Christian believers, they do celebrate the Biblical festivals and abstain from foods Biblically forbidden and do not celebrate holidays such as Christmas and Easter (The Messianic generally considers those as pagan celebrations).

Before I made the change from the non-denominational church I was attending I did a lot of study on it. I found that many in the "Christian" church are quick to come up with things that the Messianics supposedly believe that are not true. I think maybe they meant well but they judge too quickly without having all the facts. You'll find other Christians on this site who do the same thing. They continue to insist that we believe things that we don't or vise versa.

Thanks for asking.

 

[visionary]

what she said..

So .. so you think that we here are not "christian" and why?

 

[Henaynei]

I know some messianic Jew are not Christians, and I want to know how many have a Messiah out there and their name, recently we were in a Bible study and this came up. Messianic Jew do not means the Messiah is Christ, I know one case (which I don't want to name) but please educate me about others. God Bless!!!

let's see if I can succeed in explaining this with out making it more confusing....



1) in common usage Messianic does mean faith in Messiah Yeshua and designates those who try to serve G-d in a Jewish context that includes both OT and NT, including Torah

• Messianic Jew is a Jewish person who does this
• Messianic Gentile is a non-Jewish person who does this

2) in some non-believing Jewish circles there are Jews who rightly claim they are Messianic - within their context - because they are waiting earnestly for the First coming of the Messiah - however, they do not recognize Yeshua as the Messiah - after all - it is the Jewish people who have been waiting for their Messiah for 5000 years



3) there are some Messianics of the #1 kind who will assure you they are NOT Christian

• by this they are NOT saying they don't believe and serve G-d or believe Yeshua is the Messiah
• what they ARE saying is that they do not serve or worship in any of the Christian (essentially Hellenistic) cultural and often doctrinal ways
• to them Hellenistic forms and cultures of worship (which is the cultural context of modern Christian forms and worship - as opposed to Jewish ones) are not obligatory to being a follower and servant of Messiah
• to them both Messianic and Christian are designations of believers and servants of G-d, like one's right and left hand.... equal members of the Body of Believers, yet distinct and unique

you will find some of all three of these mingling around in fellowship on this forum

 

[Heber]

Hi there,

To answer your question we need to know just how you define what being a 'Christian' is - then we can tell you whether we fit that description.

Over to you...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yahshua didn't have to know how anyone defined something,
nor did the apostles, prophets, or disciples. (did any of them ever ask?)
They learned obedience through suffering, and learned to speak the words that Yhvh spoke, or that Yhvh gave them. (Yhvh knows what to say).
They didn't care if they fit a description - the opinion of people and even of one another doesn't matter; what Yhvh thinks is what matters. (It is Written)

Whether m.j.s are 'christian' or not, regardless of what anyone else thinks, doesn't matter. One m.j. may be approved by Yhvh, one may not.
What Yhvh thinks is what matters.
Yhvh's Word says most 'christian' are not alive in Christ.
Yahshua Himself said that multitudes called 'christian' are turned away by Him after the resurrection.
That should be some cause of searching for anyone called 'christian' , because their leaders and peers won't tell them the difference (between someone called 'christian' who is not in Christ and someone called 'christian' or not who is in Christ)

 

[A_Pioneer]

I was once a Christian! Yet, I was not an acceptable believer, I would have never entered into the city by it's gates. Then I learned Torah! Baruch Hashem, now I know whom I am serving.
Mt 7:21 ¶ "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Baruch Hashem!

Shalom

 

[Holy Roller]

Yahshua didn't have to know how anyone defined something,
nor did the apostles, prophets, or disciples. (did any of them ever ask?)
They learned obedience through suffering, and learned to speak the words that Yhvh spoke, or that Yhvh gave them. (Yhvh knows what to say).
They didn't care if they fit a description - the opinion of people and even of one another doesn't matter; what Yhvh thinks is what matters. (It is Written)

Whether m.j.s are 'christian' or not, regardless of what anyone else thinks, doesn't matter. One m.j. may be approved by Yhvh, one may not.
What Yhvh thinks is what matters.
Yhvh's Word says most 'christian' are not alive in Christ.
Yahshua Himself said that multitudes called 'christian' are turned away by Him after the resurrection.
That should be some cause of searching for anyone called 'christian' , because their leaders and peers won't tell them the difference (between someone called 'christian' who is not in Christ and someone called 'christian' or not who is in Christ)

Very good, yeshuaslavejeff.

 

[Heber]

YSJ

It was the OP that was asking about whether we are 'Christians', or not, not me! Your post is, of course, correct as far as it goes -all that you wrote could have been summed up simply by reference to the relevant text in Matthew 7! Mind you, Sha'aul was greatly troubled by those who claimed to be believers but were speaking another Gospel - had you forgotten his great concern about who was in and who was out and Yeshua's words about how you tell a believer - by his fruit?

However, since the question was asked, I was being polite enough to try and find out just what the OP meant; he/she is asking a much deeper question than your post allows, hence my response and the request for clarification.

 

[ContraMundum]

I know some messianic jew are not Chritians, and I want to know how many have a Messiah out there and their name, recently we were in a Bible study and this came up. Messianic Jew do not means the Messiah is Christ, I know one case (which I don't want to name) but please educate me about others. God Bless!!!

It should be also stated that being Messianic does not mean you are not Christian either.

I have to agree with jeff here:

Whether m.j.s are 'christian' or not, regardless of what anyone else thinks, doesn't matter. One m.j. may be approved by Yhvh, one may not.
What Yhvh thinks is what matters.

One thing - this forum has a number of people who consider themselves Messianic (though not necessarily Messianic Jews). If a situation ever arose where I was asked about the sincerity of the faith in Yeshua of the people that post here I would glady state that there is a solid, firm and sincere love for Yeshua in this place shared by all, regardless of what others might think. I'm not claiming to know their hearts, but if activity and zeal for the word and the holy life is anything to go by- this forum has a lot of Jesus people.

 

[Heber]

One thing - this forum has a number of people who consider themselves Messianic (though not necessarily Messianic Jews). If a situation ever arose where I was asked about the sincerity of the faith in Yeshua of the people that post here I would glady state that there is a solid, firm and sincere love for Yeshua in this place shared by all, regardless of what others might think. I'm not claiming to know their hearts, but if activity and zeal for the word and the holy life is anything to go by- this forum has a lot of Jesus people.

 

[johnd]

The technicality is that there are messianic Jews and there are Messianic Jews.

Moshiach has described many Jewish leaders down through history. The term is in reference to their commission (anointing) from God. Yeshua is the ultimate Messiah.

Yeshua also mentioned there would be false messiahs (christs: which is the Greek term for messiah):

Matthew 24:24
24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

He also predicted that those who rejected him as Christ / Messiah would look for and follow a false messiah:

John 5:43
43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.

So while those Jews who reject Yeshua / Jesus as Messiah / Christ can consider themselves "messianic" since they are looking for another messiah than him... you might point out that the general acceptance of the term Messianic Jew refers to one who believe in Jesus / Yeshua the Messiah / Christ.

To belabor the point further would open the door to discussions about how the gentile believer in the Jewish Messiah makes them Spirit Jews of the house of Spirit Israel... but we don't have to get into all that now do we...?



They'll generally hush up at that point and allow your discussion to continue in peace.

 

[Heber]

johnd.

Are you saying, then, that a 'Messianic Jew' can be a Gentile? The distinction I was making was that the answer has to be 'no', a Gentile would be a 'Messianic Gentile'. I agree with most of what you said, and I clearly take your point about messianism in Judaism, but I want to be clear on this one point with you.



PS If you open a can of worms there's always one or two that pop out and get away!

 

[Henaynei]

We gentiles whom submit to G-d do not become Jews but do become living vibrant members of the Commonwealth of Israel of G-d - we don't become Jews or Israel, but we do become part of a governed community for whom HaShem is the Head. In a similar way India was part of the Commonwealth of Britain. But the Indians never did or could become British, they were Indians, even though they submitted to British law and benefited from British protection and prosperity. That is, they were part of the British Commonwealth.
***********************************************************
The English noun commonwealth dates from the fifteenth century. The original phrase "common-wealth" or "the common weal" comes from the old meaning of "wealth," which is "well-being". The term literally meant "common well-being". Thus commonwealth originally meant a state or nation-state governed for the common good as opposed to an authoritarian state governed for the benefit of a given class of owners. The word relates to the Latin phrase res publica meaning "public affairs" or "the state", from which the English word republic arises.

Today the term is more general and means a political community.



The type of community indicated by the term commonwealth varies. For instance, in different contexts it might indicate:

• a political unit founded in law by agreement of the people for the common good;
• a federated union of constituent states;
• a community of sovereign states;
• a republic;
• a democratic constitutional monarchy;

from wikipedia

 

[Heber]

Henaynei - precisely my point.


Martin Luther had a problem with Worms!

 

[johnd]

johnd.

Are you saying, then, that a 'Messianic Jew' can be a Gentile? The distinction I was making was that the answer has to be 'no', a Gentile would be a 'Messianic Gentile'. I agree with most of what you said, and I clearly take your point about messianism in Judaism, but I want to be clear on this one point with you.



PS If you open a can of worms there's always one or two that pop out and get away!

I don't believe I made the point in this thread but I hinted at it in another and fully explained in the past several months ago that there are two types of Jew... physical (heir of A. I. J.) and spirit (heir of A.).

It doesn't matter that the Church and the physical Jews object to this... the matter of fact is...

Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the Lord.
33 But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”




John 4:19-24
19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Philippians 3:3
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Romans 9:6
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Galatians 3:26-28
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 6:13-16
13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

As I said, it matters not how much mere human being object to this... the fact remains that faith in the Jewish Messiah makes even a physical Gentile a spirit Jew. This is not to say it makes a Gentile a physical Jew nor does it entitle Gentiles to any of the physical (land) covenants... so it is therefore not replacement theology. It is inclusion theology for the Gentile and for the Jew Crossroads theology (either revert to a prior covenant or get on with the plan God had for the Jew first and then the Gentile all long).

 

[johnd]

Given the nature of this discussion I would not object to it being placed in the debate forum.

 

[visionary]

Given the nature of this discussion I would not object to it being placed in the debate forum.

if you want a debate.. open up a new thread on the subject.. this thread is from an outsider with a question.. hopefully we have answered it.

 

[johnd]

Ok.

All I was saying was rather than get into any brier patches in the CF rule book, I would not oppose sending it to debate or MW...

 

[stone]

I know some messianic jew are not Chritians, and I want to know how many have a Messiah out there and their name, recently we were in a Bible study and this came up. Messianic Jew do not means the Messiah is Christ, I know one case (which I don't want to name) but please educate me about others. God Bless!!!

I'd be curious to know what in the world your talking about. I know that in Judaism, and in ancient times, right before the fall of Israel, that a man had been deemed messiah, who of course was not. Where does this information come from about other messiah's?