Messiah and the Covenant

[JLB777]

Torah itself is witnessed to by 1) Messiah Himself, 2) Joshua, 3) the testimony of Israel, and 4) time and space (i.e. fulfilled prophecy).

Why would I be kept from believing Torah? I have multiple witnesses.

If anyone comes bearing a false message which may condemn someone to eternal death, that would surely be a "wrongdoing".

I don't need luck, thanks

What witness do you have that you are a son of God.

What witness do you have that you are in covenant with Messiah?


JLB

 

[tzadik]

Jesus taught us clearly -Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Matthew 5:23-24

As we see Cain had anger toward his brother and murdered him.

The Law of Moses does not teach this!

The commandments that Jesus is teaching in Matthew 5:19, that you say are the Law of Moses, is The DOCTRINE OF CHRIST! WHICH DEALS WITH THE HEART!

I don’t blame you. I also knew only a fraction about God’s Law, before I started obeying God’s Word in Deuteronomy 6 telling me to read, study and talk about God’s Torah all day, every day, all the time. Without studying Torah I too would think that everything Messiah taught were some “new doctrine” NEVER before seen or heard. But from studying Torah, I’ve come across passages such as Leviticus 6 below…

Leviticus 6:1-7
1. Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
2. "When a person sins and acts unfaithfully against the LORD, and deceives his companion in regard to a deposit or a security entrusted to him, or through robbery, or if he has extorted from his companion,
3. or has found what was lost and lied about it and sworn falsely, so that he sins in regard to any one of the things a man may do;
4. then it shall be, when he sins and becomes guilty, that he shall restore what he took by robbery or what he got by extortion, or the deposit which was entrusted to him or the lost thing which he found,
5. or anything about which he swore falsely; he shall make restitution for it in full and add to it one-fifth more. He shall give it to the one to whom it belongs on the day he presents his guilt offering.
6. "Then he shall bring to the priest his guilt offering to the LORD, a ram without defect from the flock, according to your valuation, for a guilt offering,
7. and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he will be forgiven for any one of the things which he may have done to incur guilt."

And the below from Leviticus 19:17, in regards to hating in the heart…
`You shall not hate your fellow countryman in your heart; you may surely reprove your neighbor, but shall not incur sin because of him.

It is comments like this that show your true ignorance of the word,[/B] and therefore you have to twist the word to make it agree with your carnal understanding.

Before you make accusations about something you believe you are ‘strong in’, you should truly study to show yourself approved.
Like I said I also didn’t know much about the Torah before I started this walk.

Messiah came to perfectly live out, teach and do the Torah of God. Everything He did, Everything He Taught, and Everything He Spoke, was in accordance to the Standard of Righteousness that God instructed long before He was born in Israel.

 

[Clare73]

The risen Christ told Ananias that Paul was his chosen instrument.

How many accounts from first-hand witnesses to these events do we have?

How many accounts of first-hand witnesses do we have every time God spoke the Law to Moses from the Holy Place?
(Lev 1:1, 4:1, 5:14, 6:1, 8, 19, 24, 7:22, 28, 8:1, 12:1, 14:1, 16:1, 2, 17:1, 18:1, 19:1, 20:1, 21:1, 16, 22:1, 17, 26, 23:1, 9, 23, 26, 33, 24:1, 27:1:1; Nu 1:1, 4:21, 5:1, 11, 6:1, 22, 8:1, 5, 23, 9:1, 10:1, 11:16, 23, 13:1, 15:1, 17, 37, 17:1, 18:25, 21:8, 34, 25:4, 10, 16, 26:52, 27:12, 18, 28:1, 31:1, 25, 34:1, 16, etc., etc., etc.)

Or spoke to Balaam (Nu 22:9, 12, 20, 23:16), etc.?

Does that keep you from believing that God did speak what is recorded of him?

This is misunderstanding, misusing and employing a double standard,
regarding the Biblical requirment of two or three witnesses,
which applies only to testimony regarding wrongdoing (Nu 35:30; Dt 17:6, 19:15; Mt 18:16; 1Tim 5:19; Heb 10:28).

And with your wrong requirement of two to three witnesses to the event,
you set at naught 99% of Leviticus, Numbers, the Prophets, etc., because there were no witnesses to it.
Likewise, your wrong requirments sets at naught Paul's call by the risen Christ to be an apostle (Gal 1:1; 1Ti 1:1).

And then there's the double standard of applying your wrong requirement to NT events, but not to OT events, such as God speaking to Balaam.

This is a grasping at straws of human rationale and double standards, with no Biblical foundation for your rejection of most of the NT Word of God.

Good luck with that.

Torah itself is witnessed to by 1) Messiah Himself, 2) Joshua, 3) the testimony of Israel, and 4) time and space (i.e. fulfilled prophecy).

Loose handling of the Scriptures
Those are not first-hand witnesses as you require.

If anyone comes bearing a false message which may condemn someone to eternal death, that would surely be a "wrongdoing".

More loose handling of the Scriptures, and add to that loose handling of your own words.

You required witnesses for Paul's commission from Jesus Christ.
Now you've changed it to witnesses for his wrongdoing.

It's hard to take you seriously.

Okay, let's go with wrongdoing.
What two or three first-hand witnesses are there for Paul's wrongdoing?

False is in the eye of the beholder, so what law did Paul violate?

I don't need luck, thanks

Human rationale, double standards and no Biblical foundation for rejection of the majority of the NT Word of God has only good luck to rely on for its well-being.

 

[ananda]

Loose handling of the Scriptures Those are not first-hand witnesses as you require.

As far as I'm concerned, they are.

1. Messiah IS Elohim, and He sees all, and is thus a first-hand witness.
2. YHWH spoke to Joshua and His Word was confirmed by Joshua (1:7-9) as a first-hand witness by his account in his book.
3. Israel witnessed to YHWH's actions (Isaiah 43:10-12, Deu 31:19), Torah itself is their record.
4. Fulfilled prophecy, and the testimony of history down the ages, testifies as a first-hand witness to the Author of Torah. He must be One who has power over both time and space; the fact that prophecy is indeed fulfilled also functions as a first-hand witness (Rev 19:10).

This satisfies my requirements for witnesses.

You required witnesses for Paul's commission from Jesus Christ.
Now you've changed it to witnesses for his wrongdoing. What two or three first-hand witnesses are there for Paul's wrongdoing?

I changed nothing. I did not require multiple witnesses for his wrongdoing, because he condemns himself enough already by his own multiple written rejections of Torah, in many of his writings.

If you believe Paul's own claim for his alleged commissioning, and by rejecting YHWH's and Messiah's rules for testing "prophets," then there is nothing to stop you from believing every quack "prophet" out there with the same claim.

 

[Frogster]

I don’t blame you. I also knew only a fraction about God’s Law, before I started obeying God’s Word in Deuteronomy 6 telling me to read, study and talk about God’s Torah all day, every day, all the time. Without studying Torah I too would think that everything Messiah taught were some “new doctrine” NEVER before seen or heard. But from studying Torah, I’ve come across passages such as Leviticus 6 below…

Leviticus 6:1-7
1. Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
2. "When a person sins and acts unfaithfully against the LORD, and deceives his companion in regard to a deposit or a security entrusted to him, or through robbery, or if he has extorted from his companion,
3. or has found what was lost and lied about it and sworn falsely, so that he sins in regard to any one of the things a man may do;
4. then it shall be, when he sins and becomes guilty, that he shall restore what he took by robbery or what he got by extortion, or the deposit which was entrusted to him or the lost thing which he found,
5. or anything about which he swore falsely; he shall make restitution for it in full and add to it one-fifth more. He shall give it to the one to whom it belongs on the day he presents his guilt offering.
6. "Then he shall bring to the priest his guilt offering to the LORD, a ram without defect from the flock, according to your valuation, for a guilt offering,
7. and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he will be forgiven for any one of the things which he may have done to incur guilt."

And the below from Leviticus 19:17, in regards to hating in the heart…
`You shall not hate your fellow countryman in your heart; you may surely reprove your neighbor, but shall not incur sin because of him.

Before you make accusations about something you believe you are ‘strong in’, you should truly study to show yourself approved.
Like I said I also didn’t know much about the Torah before I started this walk.

Messiah came to perfectly live out, teach and do the Torah of God. Everything He did, Everything He Taught, and Everything He Spoke, was in accordance to the Standard of Righteousness that God instructed long before He was born in Israel.

but so long as u condemn other christian as sinners, if they eat a shrimp in coctail sause, or lobster in butter, u r reliving the error of peter in Antioch, recorded in gal 2. judaism is not christianity. it was torn down..rebuild it, u got the error again, declaring gentiles sinners, because of some jewish food restrictions.

Gal 2:18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor

 

[Frogster]

As far as I'm concerned, they are.

1. Messiah IS Elohim, and He sees all, and is thus a first-hand witness.
2. YHWH spoke to Joshua and His Word was confirmed by Joshua (1:7-9) as a first-hand witness by his account in his book.
3. Israel witnessed to YHWH's actions (Isaiah 43:10-12, Deu 31:19), Torah itself is their record.
4. Fulfilled prophecy, and the testimony of history down the ages, testifies as a first-hand witness to the Author of Torah. He must be One who has power over both time and space; the fact that prophecy is indeed fulfilled also functions as a first-hand witness (Rev 19:10).

This satisfies my requirements for witnesses.

I changed nothing. I did not require multiple witnesses for his wrongdoing, because he condemns himself enough already by his own multiple written rejections of Torah, in many of his writings.

If you believe Paul's own claim for his alleged commissioning, and by rejecting YHWH's and Messiah's rules for testing "prophets," then there is nothing to stop you from believing every quack "prophet" out there with the same claim.

then u r calling peter and luke a quack, because any clear thinking bible student, knows they witness paul.

that is why u won't refute my post i put, of the witness by Luke.

 

[Frogster]

How many accounts of firsthand witnesses do we have every time God spoke the Law to Moses from the Holy Place?
(Lev 1:1, 4:1, 5:14, 6:1, 8, 19, 24, 7:22, 28, 8:1, 12:1, 14:1, 16:1, 2, 17:1, 18:1, 19:1, 20:1, 21:1, 16, 22:1, 17, 26, 23:1, 9, 23, 26, 33, 24:1, 27:1:1; Nu 1:1, 4:21, 5:1, 11, 6:1, 22, 8:1, 5, 23, 9:1, 10:1, 11:16, 23, 13:1, 15:1, 17, 37, 17:1, 18:25, 21:8, 34, 25:4, 10, 16, 26:52, 27:12, 18, 28:1, 31:1, 25, 34:1, 16, etc., etc., etc.)

Or spoke to Balaam (Nu 22:9, 12, 20, 23:16), etc.?

Does that keep you from believing that God did speak what is recorded of him?

This is misunderstanding, misusing and applying a double standard regarding the Biblical mandate requiring two or three witnesses, which applies only to testimony regarding wrongdoing (Nu 35:30; Dt 17:6, 19:15; Mt 18:16; 1Tim 5:19; Heb 10:28).
And with such misuse of it, 99% of Leviticus, Numbers, the Prophets, etc. are set at naught,
as well as falsely setting at naught Paul's call by the risen Christ to be an apostle (Gal 1:1; 1Ti 1:1).
And then there's the double standard of not applying it to OT events.

This is a grasping at straws of human rationale and double standards, with no Biblical foundation for your rejection of most of the NT Word of God.

Good luck with that.

good point about moses and witnessing..

 

[Clare73]

As far as I'm concerned, they are.

1. Messiah IS Elohim, and He sees all, and is thus a first-hand witness.
2. YHWH spoke to Joshua and His Word was confirmed by Joshua (1:7-9) as a first-hand witness by his account in his book.
3. Israel witnessed to YHWH's actions (Isaiah 43:10-12, Deu 31:19), Torah itself is their record.
4. Fulfilled prophecy, and the testimony of history down the ages, testifies as a first-hand witness to the Author of Torah. He must be One who has power over both time and space; the fact that prophecy is indeed fulfilled also functions as a first-hand witness (Rev 19:10).

This satisfies my requirements for witnesses.

Handling your own words (quoted below) loosely again. . .none are first-hand witnesses to the event.

And by this new and loose standard, since the Word of God is God speaking, then God bears first-hand witness numerous times in the NT Word of God to Paul's commission.

You required witnesses for Paul's commission from Jesus Christ.
Now you've changed it to witnesses for his wrongdoing.

I did not require multiple witnesses for his wrongdoing, because he condemns himself enough already by his own multiple written rejections of Torah, in many of his writings.

Your own words are a first-hand witness against you, in the following:

How many accounts from first-hand witnesses to these events do we have?

This is misunderstanding, misusing and employing a double standard,
regarding the Biblical requirment of two or three witnesses to the event,
which applies only to testimony regarding wrongdoing
(Nu 35:30; Dt 17:6, 19:15; Mt 18:16; 1Tim 5:19; Heb 10:28).

And in your wrongly requiring two or three witnesses to the event of God speaking,
99% of Leviticus, Numbers, the Prophets, etc. are set at naught, for there were no witnesses to it.
And your wrong requirement falsely sets at naught Paul's call by the risen Christ to be an apostle (Gal 1:1; 1Ti 1:1), for there were no witnesses to that either.
And then there's the double standard of not applying your wrong requirement to OT events, such as God speaking to Balaam.
Do you believe God spoke to Balaam? There were no witnesses.

If anyone comes bearing a false message which may condemn someone to eternal death, that would surely be a "wrongdoing".

Yes. . .we see here that, in addition to the Scriptures, you also handle your own words loosely.

For when it was proven that the testimony of two or three witnesses applied only to wrongdoing, and did not apply to Paul's commission,
you then tried to apply it to Paul's gospel as "wrongdoing,"
and then claimed above that you did not apply it to Paul's gospel as "wrongdoing."

Yes. . .you changed your misapplication of two or three witnesses from Paul's commission, to Paul's gospel.

It's hard to take you seriously.

If you believe Paul's own claim for his alleged commissioning, and by rejecting YHWH's and Messiah's rules for testing "prophets," then there is nothing to stop you from believing every quack "prophet" out there with the same claim.

Convenient omission of the requested law violated by Paul.

And you haven't told me what you know that Peter, James, John, Paul and Apollos did not know,
which would form a basis for your disagreeing with them.

 

[ananda]

Your own words are a first-hand witness against you, in the following: Yes, in addition to the Scriptures, you also handle your own words loosely.

Your words are not my words. You claimed that two or more witnesses are required only for wrongdoing. I did not claim this.

Originally Posted by netzarim As far as I'm concerned, they are. 1. Messiah IS Elohim, and He sees all, and is thus a first-hand witness ...

None are first-hand witnesses that God spoke to Moses in the Holy Place rather than on Moses' couch.

Since you deny that Messiah was a first-hand witness in light of His very nature as Elohim, I see no point in continuing this discussion, thanks!

 

[Clare73]

Your words are not my words. You claimed that two or more witnesses are required only for wrongdoing. I did not claim this.

Since you deny that Messiah was a first-hand witness in light of His very nature as Elohim, I see no point in continuing this discussion, thanks!

To quote one who shall remain nameless:

naaaa. . .you just can't refute the loose handling of your own words,
as well as your loose handling of the Scriptures. . .

nor can you tell me what you know that Peter, James, John, Paul and Apollos did not know,
on which you base your disagreement with them.

 

[Frogster]

Your words are not my words. You claimed that two or more witnesses are required only for wrongdoing. I did not claim this.

Since you deny that Messiah was a first-hand witness in light of His very nature as Elohim, I see no point in continuing this discussion, thanks!

you used to keep quoting the everything must be witnessed verses, until i showed u how, for the most part, it was for legalities, just like in our courts, so and so saw him steal etc, the verses are not used the way u use them in this "witness thing" u keep holding up.

Clare73 is correct.