Messiah and the Covenant

[ananda]

I believe I did. In addition to agreement with Torah and the Prophets, Scripture clearly demands two or three first-hand witnesses to establish anything. There are none for Paul.

Except for the NT record of Luke, the apostles and the elders of the church in Jerusalem. . . So how many witnesses were there for Jesus, the prophet who was to come?

The record of Luke was a second-hand account, not first-hand. Also, his hearsay accounts in Acts of Paul's Damascus road experience contradicts one another, so it is really no evidence at all.

Messiah Yehoshua has multiple witnesses: namely, the Tanach, which prophesied of His coming, and the dual first-hand accounts of His life by His apostles, Matthew and John. Also, first-hand testimony by His apostle Peter and His brothers James and Jude.

The issue is simple. The NT cannot be proven either true or untrue. It is a matter of belief/unbelief. I believe the canonized NT, you don't.

The issue as I see it as this: Either a believer can embrace and apply the rules previously given in Deu 13:1-5, Deu 18:18-22, Isa 8:20, etc., or, one can ignore those Scriptures in favor of embracing man's tradition (heart-felt faith in the NT canonized by men).

Your view is as Marcion's and your "vast majority of believers"--heretical.

What was once orthodox is now heresy, and what was heresy is now orthodox.

 

[JLB777]

Based on this scripture, which carries more weight? The Law or The New Covenant in His Blood?

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?


JLB

 

[tzadik]

Based on this scripture, which carries more weight? The Law or The New Covenant in His Blood?

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?


JLB

Am I the only person alive today that can see that the "New Covenant" that everybody vehemently pines against the Law of God, CONTAINS that VERY same Law of God, this time to be written on the hearts and minds???

Perhaps my bible is rigged?
"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law (Torah) within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." Jer. 31:31

Kinda boggles my mind...

There exists no such thing as "the Torah of God vs. the New Covenant"---Scripturally atleast...

completely man-made.

The New Covenant is Torah based.

 

[JLB777]

Matthew 5:17-20

17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

The Pharisee’s practiced the Law of Moses. Jesus taught commandments of The kingdom of God that surpassed the requirements of the commandments Moses.

Example: 7 They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?"
8 He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."
The Point – Jesus Commands carry more weight and surpass the commands of Moses. Obviously then, when Jesus made this statement –
… unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

He was not referring to the Law of Moses, He was in fact referring to His Commandments that He was in the process of teaching, which were –

· 21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
· 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
· 27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
· 31 "Furthermore it has been said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.
· 33 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.' 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
· 38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.
· 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

These are the commandments Jesus referred to in Matthew 5:19
Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

These are The commandments that exceed the righteousness of The Law of Moses!

The Lord’s commandment to Abraham was “Walk before Me and be perfect”

This is The Spirit of The Law, to walk with God, To love Him with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself.

 

[ananda]

Am I the only person alive today that can see that the "New Covenant" that everybody vehemently pines against the Law of God, CONTAINS that VERY same Law of God, this time to be written on the hearts and minds??? The New Covenant is Torah based.

I think there are a couple of related, but different, issues here:

1. I agree with you that the coming "New Covenant" will be completely based on Torah, as Jeremiah prophesied.
2. However, we are currently in the Renewed (kainos) Covenant-era, not the New (neos) Covenant-era.
3. and finally, we are more precisely speaking about the "New Testament" books; we (or at least I) were not addressing the "New/Renewed Covenant".

 

[ananda]

For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven ... The Pharisee’s practiced the Law of Moses. Jesus taught commandments of The kingdom of God that surpassed the requirements of the commandments Moses ... Jesus Commands carry more weight and surpass the commands of Moses. Obviously then, when Jesus made this statement ... He was not referring to the Law of Moses, He was in fact referring to His Commandments that He was in the process of teaching

I believe this is a common error among mainstream Christians: the Pharisees were in fact not strict Torah observers. According to Josephus and the Dead Sea Scrolls, the scribes and Pharisees were actually those who abandoned much of Torah and were loose in its observation; they were also the group that "loosened the commands" by modifying Torah through their own traditions. The Sadducees were in reality the strict Torah observant group. This is why Messiah chastised the Pharisees on this issue, and not the Sadducees. We must indeed be more Torah-observant than the liberal Pharisees, to enter into the kingdom of heaven!

 

[tzadik]

Matthew 5:17-20

17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

The Pharisee’s practiced the Law of Moses. Jesus taught commandments of The kingdom of God that surpassed the requirements of the commandments Moses.

Example: 7 They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?"
8 He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."
The Point – Jesus Commands carry more weight and surpass the commands of Moses. Obviously then, when Jesus made this statement –
… unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

He was not referring to the Law of Moses, He was in fact referring to His Commandments that He was in the process of teaching, which were –

· 21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
· 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
· 27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
· 31 "Furthermore it has been said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.
· 33 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.' 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
· 38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.
· 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

These are the commandments Jesus referred to in Matthew 5:19
Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

These are The commandments that exceed the righteousness of The Law of Moses!

The Lord’s commandment to Abraham was “Walk before Me and be perfect”

This is The Spirit of The Law, to walk with God, To love Him with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself.

Nutshell:
'The Law of Messiah is higher, better, weightier, than the Law of God.'

I disagree.

 

[tzadik]

I believe this is a common error among mainstream Christians: the Pharisees were in fact not strict Torah observers. According to Josephus and the Dead Sea Scrolls, the scribes and Pharisees were actually those who abandoned much of Torah and were loose in its observation; they were also the group that "loosened the commands" by modifying Torah through their own traditions. The Sadducees were in reality the strict Torah observant group. This is why Messiah chastised the Pharisees on this issue, and not the Sadducees. We must indeed be more Torah-observant than the liberal Pharisees, to enter into the kingdom of heaven!

Good word.
The pharisees were often guilty of 'neglecting God's commandments for the sake of man's traditions'. (Mark 7:8)

Lots of "pharisaic" thinking lingering today...

 

[JLB777]

Any legitimate words given by YHWH are authenticated when they are proven to agree with the Torah and the Prophets.

Maybe that is the core issue we are having.

The One who said ... unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven,
is YHWH.

Jesus is YHWH! Jesus is Lord!

Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The Commandments of verse 19 are not the commandments of The Law of Moses but are The Commandments that Jesus was teaching them that exceeded the righteousness of the Pharisee's.


Thanks, JLB

 

[JLB777]

Nutshell:
'The Law of Messiah is higher, better, weightier, than the Law of God.'

I disagree.

Then you should take that up with Jesus!



Jesus is The Word. He gave The Law. He is God.

He made covenant with Abraham!

the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.

JLB

 

[tzadik]

Any legitimate words given by YHWH are authenticated when they are proven to agree with the Torah and the Prophets.

Maybe that is the core issue we are having.

The One who said ... unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven,
is YHWH.

Jesus is YHWH! Jesus is Lord!

Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The Commandments of verse 19 are not the commandments of The Law of Moses but are The Commandments that Jesus was teaching them that exceeded the righteousness of the Pharisee's.


Thanks, JLB

But therein lies the problem...

the righteousness of the scribes and the pharisees is NOT the Law of GOD!


The Law of God IS righteousness!
Psalm 119:172
"Let my tongue sing of Your word, For all Your commandments are righteousness."

Romans 7:12
"So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good."

 

[tzadik]

Then you should take that up with Jesus!



Jesus is The Word. He gave The Law. He is God.

He made covenant with Abraham!

the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.

JLB

How about we let Messiah speak for Himself...

John 12:49-50
49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak."
50. "I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."

hmmm
It seems Messiah is CLEARLY telling us that He did not speak ANYTHING by His own initiative, but ONLY what the Father commanded...

So are you telling me that the Father commanded Messiah to speak against what He previously commanded????

 

[ananda]

Messiah is CLEARLY telling us that He did not speak ANYTHING by His own initiative, but ONLY what the Father commanded...

Amein. Messiah's Words are the Words of YHWH.

 

[Clare73]

The record of Luke was a second-hand account, not first-hand. Also, his hearsay accounts in Acts of Paul's Damascus road experience contradicts one another, so it is really no evidence at all.

Contradictions are in your mind, not the Word of God.

Messiah Yehoshua has multiple witnesses: namely, the Tanach, which prophesied of His coming, and the dual first-hand accounts of His life by His apostles, Matthew and John. Also, first-hand testimony by His apostle Peter and His brothers James and Jude.

The same Peter grouped Paul's writings with "the rest of Scripture," testifying that they were God-breathed.
Paul has the testimony of the apostles and elders of the church in Jerusalem in their commission of him to preach to the Gentiles.
Who has every commissioned anyone to teach what they did not approve?

The issue as I see it as this: Either a believer can embrace and apply the rules previously given in Deu 13:1-5, Deu 18:18-22, Isa 8:20, etc., or, one can ignore those Scriptures in favor of embracing man's tradition (heart-felt faith in the NT canonized by men).

The issue as I see it is this: One can accept the personal and powerfully convincing testimony of the Holy Spirit to the truth of all Scripture, or one can reject the Spirit's testimony given to oneself personally.

We all choose, and we all bear the consequences of our choices.

 

[ananda]

Good word.
The pharisees were often guilty of 'neglecting God's commandments for the sake of man's traditions'. (Mark 7:8)

Lots of "pharisaic" thinking lingering today...

The Pharisees and Sadducees were of the same era, but they were indeed quite different. Here's a flowchart I whipped up that shows the relationships as I understand them ...

 

[JLB777]

But therein lies the problem...

the righteousness of the scribes and the pharisees is NOT the Law of GOD!


The Law of God IS righteousness!
Psalm 119:172
"Let my tongue sing of Your word, For all Your commandments are righteousness."

Romans 7:12
"So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good."

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

The Law is not of faith!

just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith." 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them." Galatians 3:6-12

Righteousness that exceeds the righteousness of the Law is righteousness of faith.

For it is written Abraham believed God and it was accredited to him as righteousness!


Therefore Jesus rightly said if your righteousness does not EXCEED that of the Pharisee's you shall not enter The kingdom of God.

THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH!

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.


Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

CHECKMATE!

JLB

 

[Clare73]

I think there are a couple of related, but different, issues here:

1. I agree with you that the coming "New Covenant" will be completely based on Torah, as Jeremiah prophesied.
2. However, we are currently in the Renewed (kainos) Covenant-era, not the New (neos) Covenant-era.

Neither chadash (new thing) nor kainos (new as to form or quality, of different nature from the old, as a new creative act--Gal 6:15, a new creation, a new man, a new commandment) denote a renewal of what was before.

3. and finally, we are more precisely speaking about the "New Testament" books; we (or at least I) were not addressing the "New/Renewed Covenant".

 

[visionary]

When a person is born again ... they are a "new" creature in Christ... so yeah.. that is a transformation... using all the same materials as before but now with the added feature of the Holy Spirit... Same with the "New" covenant that the Holy spirit writes on the heart.

 

[ananda]

Neither chadash (new thing) nor kainos (new as to form or quality, of different nature from the old, as a new creative act--Gal 6:15, a new creation, a new man, a new commandment) denote a renewal of what was before.

You quoted selected parts of Vines but forgot to quote other parts? ...

kainoß "denotes "new," of that which is unaccustomed or unused, not "new" in time, recent, but "new" as to form or quality, of different nature from what is contrasted as old. "'The new tongues,' kainos, of Mar 16:17 are the 'other tongues,' heteros, of Act 2:4. These languages, however, were 'new' and 'different,' not in the sense that they had never been heard before, or that they were new to the hearers, for it is plain from Act 2:8 that this is not the case; they were new languages to the speakers, different from those in which they were accustomed to speak."

Sorry, but it is clear from Vine's (and other lexicons & dictionaries, TDNT, Liddells, Thayer, etc.), that kainoß is only new in the sense that men and women may not have not seen it before, but it has existed in the past (e.g., not new in time). Messiah came to bring the Renewed Covenant (the "old" covenant, refreshed), not the Brand-New Covenant as prophesied by Jeremiah.

 

[JLB777]

When a person is born again ... they are a "new" creature in Christ... so yeah.. that is a transformation... using all the same materials as before but now with the added feature of the Holy Spirit... Same with the "New" covenant that the Holy spirit writes on the heart.

New Priesthood.

Changed Law.

For where the Spirit of The Lord is there is liberty.


JLB