Messiah and the Covenant

[tzadik]

in the same breath believe that 'that spirit' leads them against any of the above--clearly labeled as TRUTH?


Which one one these scriptures is TRUTH!

Proverbs 26:4-5

4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him.

5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.


JLB

BOTH!
This entire Proverb, but more specifically verses 4 and 5 teach us the importance of timing!
"when to speak, and when not to speak". But what is even more brilliant is the fact that the verses do not contain any criteria for deciding the matter!
You know why?
Because it is the responsibility of the 'wise' to evaluate the situation, event and person involved in order to determine the best response.
The purpose of this Proverb/verses is to train our moral senses to make the right choices in a twisted world

 

[JLB777]

BOTH!
This entire Proverb, but more specifically verses 4 and 5 teach us the importance of timing!
"when to speak, and when not to speak". But what is even more brilliant is the fact that the verses do not contain any criteria for deciding the matter!
You know why?
Because it is the responsibility of the 'wise' to evaluate the situation, event and person involved in order to determine the best response.
The purpose of this Proverb/verses is to train our moral senses to make the right choices in a twisted world

Only one of these verse's can be applied as truth for a given situation, as led by Wisdom.

It is Wisdom to know the right time, the right place and right person to apply this Truth!

And so it is today, for us to apply the Truth of The new Covenant as it was Wisdom in David's day to apply the Truth of that Day!

JLB

 

[tzadik]

Only one of these verse's can be applied as truth for a given situation, as led by Wisdom.

It is Wisdom to know the right time, the right place and right person to apply this Truth!

And so it is today, for us to apply the Truth of The new Covenant as it was Wisdom in David's day to apply the Truth of that Day!

JLB

WOW.

Are you telling me what is truth is not always truth?
I can't believe you are trying to dismiss God's Torah as Truth, using dispensations.
God's Truth transcends all dispensations, all time periods, even all covenants!

This is why Jeremiah 31 tells us that the New Covenant will ALSO have God's Torah!
Know why?
Cuz it's the revelation of God's Will!
It's God's standard of righteousness!

Do you know what everlasting means?

 

[tzadik]

Only one of these verse's can be applied as truth for a given situation, as led by Wisdom.

It is Wisdom to know the right time, the right place and right person to apply this Truth!

And so it is today, for us to apply the Truth of The new Covenant as it was Wisdom in David's day to apply the Truth of that Day!

JLB

BOTH of the verses are true at all times!
God wants us to answer a fool only at the right time!

No rocket science there buddy.

 

[Frogster]

WOW.

Are you telling me what is truth is not always truth?
I can't believe you are trying to dismiss God's Torah as Truth, using dispensations.
God's Truth transcends all dispensations, all time periods, even all covenants!

This is why Jeremiah 31 tells us that the New Covenant will ALSO have God's Torah!
Know why?
Cuz it's the revelation of God's Will!
It's God's standard of righteousness!

Do you know what everlasting means?

The hidden revelation was about faith righteousness...

I have asked you hundreds of times, as you promote torah, using jer 31, what law are written on our hearts?

Are gentiles bound by food restrictions, and are we legally bound to keep the festivals, do we have to circumcise our boys on the 8th day, can we wear interwoven clothing?

WHAT IS EXACTLY WRITTEN?

 

[Frogster]

WOW.

Are you telling me what is truth is not always truth?
I can't believe you are trying to dismiss God's Torah as Truth, using dispensations.
God's Truth transcends all dispensations, all time periods, even all covenants!

This is why Jeremiah 31 tells us that the New Covenant will ALSO have God's Torah!
Know why?
Cuz it's the revelation of God's Will!
It's God's standard of righteousness!

Do you know what everlasting means?

IF THE LAW IS RIGHTEOUNSESS FOR THE CHRISTIAN, WHY DID SCRIPTURE USE ABRAHAM, THE MAN OF FAITH, TO WARD OFF LAW?

WHY DOES IT SAY BLESSED IN THE ABRHAMAIC GOSPEL, CURSED UNDER LAW?


8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

 

[Frogster]

WOW.

Are you telling me what is truth is not always truth?
I can't believe you are trying to dismiss God's Torah as Truth, using dispensations.
God's Truth transcends all dispensations, all time periods, even all covenants!

This is why Jeremiah 31 tells us that the New Covenant will ALSO have God's Torah!
Know why?
Cuz it's the revelation of God's Will!
It's God's standard of righteousness!

Do you know what everlasting means?

WOW! SCRIPTURE SAYS ITIS IGNORANCE TO ACTUALLY NOW THINK, THAT THE LAW WAS GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS



THERE IS A KEY WORD IN 10:4, BACK TO FAITH..IT SAYS...SAYS..BELIEVE...



10:3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.




THERE IS A KEY WORD IN 10:4, BACK TO FAITH..IT SAYS...SAYS..BELIEVE...

 

[Frogster]

WOW.

Are you telling me what is truth is not always truth?
I can't believe you are trying to dismiss God's Torah as Truth, using dispensations.
God's Truth transcends all dispensations, all time periods, even all covenants!

This is why Jeremiah 31 tells us that the New Covenant will ALSO have God's Torah!
Know why?
Cuz it's the revelation of God's Will!
It's God's standard of righteousness!

Do you know what everlasting means?

THE GOSPEL IS CALLED GRACE, THE LAW CAME BY MOSES, GRACE CAME BY WHO IN JOHN 1:17?

 

[tzadik]

The hidden revelation was about faith righteousness...

I have asked you hundreds of times, as you promote torah, using jer 31, what law are written on our hearts?

Are gentiles bound by food restrictions, and are we legally bound to keep the festivals, do we have to circumcise our boys on the 8th day, can we wear interwoven clothing?

WHAT IS EXACTLY WRITTEN?

NONE.
That part of Jeremiah 31 has not yet come to pass.
If it did, me and you wouldn't be arguing about the Law of God!
Since I assume you are a partaker of the New Covenant.
If we both had God's Torah written on our hearts, we would, along with all of God's people live according to His Torah.

Now same question to you...seeing you DO believe that "something" is written on your heart...
what commandments or laws or ordinances are written on your heart?

 

[Frogster]

NONE.
That part of Jeremiah 31 has not yet come to pass.
If it did, me and you wouldn't be arguing about the Law of God!
Since I assume you are a partaker of the New Covenant.
If we both had God's Torah written on our hearts, we would, along with all of God's people live according to His Torah.

Now same question to you...seeing you DO believe that "something" is written on your heart...
what commandments or laws or ordinances are written on your heart?

what hasn't it come to pass? was paul not a minister of the new cov in 2 Cor 3-4?

see, you're promoting the torah, not me pal, so again, the law was one, so what laws are written?

I have no problem saying over and over again, that we don't want to kill or steal..

but you got the burden of telling us if we are bound by food laws, and festivals?

 

[Frogster]

NONE.
That part of Jeremiah 31 has not yet come to pass.
If it did, me and you wouldn't be arguing about the Law of God!
Since I assume you are a partaker of the New Covenant.
If we both had God's Torah written on our hearts, we would, along with all of God's people live according to His Torah.

Now same question to you...seeing you DO believe that "something" is written on your heart...
what commandments or laws or ordinances are written on your heart?

i prove it is not a "renewed" cov, because if it were, all the same laws would be renewed, and if food laws were written internally, we would be bound externally, and that is unscriptural. To renew, would have to mean the same laws are renewed. How am i wrong?

 

[Frogster]

WOW.

Are you telling me what is truth is not always truth?
I can't believe you are trying to dismiss God's Torah as Truth, using dispensations.
God's Truth transcends all dispensations, all time periods, even all covenants!

This is why Jeremiah 31 tells us that the New Covenant will ALSO have God's Torah!
Know why?
Cuz it's the revelation of God's Will!
It's God's standard of righteousness!

Do you know what everlasting means?

then..u got the burden that paul said sin will have dominion under law in 6:14, said to chrisitans, so how do we now live? In a command mode, which arouses sin, as the Bible teaches?

You never talk grace, that is the gospel, not law, you can't be a son of Abe by law, rom 4:15-16, says law voids the promise, it is all about faith and grace, not the 10 commandments..,bahahahah

Leter let go of trying to bind us gentiles under torah..

you can't keep it anway, no temple.

DO YOU WERE INTERWOVEN CLOTHING?

 

[tzadik]

i prove it is not a "renewed" cov, because if it were, all the same laws would be renewed, and if food laws were written internally, we would be bound externally, and that is unscriptural. To renew, would have to mean the same laws are renewed. How am i wrong?

It's this simple Froggy.
I say that the Torah of God is not yet written on the hearts of all who partake in the New Covenant. (Just like "not everyone already KNOWS the Lord, and we still have to teach our neighbors to know the Lord. - verse 34" and just like "the city has not been rebuilt - verse 38", and just like "God has not regathered Israel from where they are scattered - verse 10".)

You say it is.
So you have to tell me what laws/commandments/ordinances are written on your heart. (fyi whatever laws you mention MUST be written on ALL believers' hearts too)

 

[JLB777]

It's this simple Froggy.
I say that the Torah of God is not yet written on the hearts of all who partake in the New Covenant. (Just like "not everyone already KNOWS the Lord, and we still have to teach our neighbors to know the Lord. - verse 34" and just like "the city has not been rebuilt - verse 38", and just like "God has not regathered Israel from where they are scattered - verse 10".)

You say it is.
So you have to tell me what laws/commandments/ordinances are written on your heart. (fyi whatever laws you mention MUST be written on ALL believers' hearts too)

All believers in Jesus Christ don't have to be taught to "know" the Lord.

The Lord is in them! They are in Him!

Of course those that are still unbelievers need to hear the Gospel and repent and believe so they to can be born again and know The Lord!

Of course in your religion it may be different!


JLB

 

[tzadik]

All believers in Jesus Christ don't have to be taught to "know" the Lord.

The Lord is in them! They are in Him!

Of course those that are still unbelievers need to hear the Gospel and repent and believe so they to can be born again and know The Lord!

Of course in your religion it may be different!


JLB

Let’s do a quick quiz.

How about we try to stay true to the text. No implications. No assumptions. No guesses.
100% Strictly text.

31. "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
--
Question: Do you think God already made a New Covenant with these two houses?
Ever wonder why Hebrews 8 also says “behold, days are coming” and speaks of the entire Covenant in future terms? Don’t you think the author of Hebrews should have clearly said, the day is here! And all of this is here?
Why still ‘behold it’s coming’? Ever thought about that? I digress.

So first question, has God made a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah?---the Jewish people.

32. not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.
--
Just in case anyone wonders if “Israel and Judah” are metaphors for the church or any other people group, God assures us that He is literally speaking of literal Israel.

The nation He chose as His own. The nation He chose to reveal Himself to, reveal His character to, reveal His Messiah through, give His Instructions through—that people. The people who broke the old covenant and the people whose fathers were led out of Egypt. That people. (and those grafted in)


33. "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
--
So what is so new about this covenant? What is so different about this covenant? (bear in mind I did not ask, what do we believe is different but what does the text say?)
It says, in THIS covenant I WILL PUT MY LAW within them (the people of Israel) and write it on their hearts!
Wow.
Question: What will be different about this covenant? God will put HIS Law within them and write it on their hearts!

Question: Where was God’s Law put in the first covenant? Answer: It was spoken and written down and taught by Moses, and God instructed His people to IMPRESS His Law on their hearts. God wanted Israel to place, treasure, impress, write His Law/Word on their hearts! Did they do this? NO!
So what does God do in this New Covenant –to come? He decides to WRITE HIS LAW on their hearts!

34. "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,'
--
Pause! Are you telling me that everyone in verse 34 are supposedly saved? Think about what you are saying. Why would someone who is saved need to teach his saved neighbor saying “know the Lord”? I digress.
Sticking to the text. The ‘they is Israel’ remember? Ok, so do you believe that currently all of Israel “knows the Lord” and therefore need not to teach each man his neighbor? Course not.

for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD,
--
Do you believe that EVERYONE, from the least to the greatest of THEM (Israel/Judah) knows the Lord?

"for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
--
Interesting question: Do you believe that God has forgiven ALL of the iniquity of Israel/Judah?

 

[Frogster]

It's this simple Froggy.
I say that the Torah of God is not yet written on the hearts of all who partake in the New Covenant. (Just like "not everyone already KNOWS the Lord, and we still have to teach our neighbors to know the Lord. - verse 34" and just like "the city has not been rebuilt - verse 38", and just like "God has not regathered Israel from where they are scattered - verse 10".)

You say it is.
So you have to tell me what laws/commandments/ordinances are written on your heart. (fyi whatever laws you mention MUST be written on ALL believers' hearts too)

i said they are not...no, food restrictions, and festival laws are not..

ok, your turn..

what laws are we under in the new cov, is the full mosaic law written, for us to follow?

by the way, u don't answer..

do u wear interwoven clothing?

u have to tell, you promote torah...i u r gonna promote laws using jer 31, u gotta tell me what laws..

i say don't kill or steal, don't worship demons?

ok, where is your list?

festivals, foods restrictions?

 

[Frogster]

Let’s do a quick quiz.

How about we try to stay true to the text. No implications. No assumptions. No guesses.
100% Strictly text.

31. "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
--
Question: Do you think God already made a New Covenant with these two houses?
Ever wonder why Hebrews 8 also says “behold, days are coming” and speaks of the entire Covenant in future terms? Don’t you think the author of Hebrews should have clearly said, the day is here! And all of this is here?
Why still ‘behold it’s coming’? Ever thought about that? I digress.

So first question, has God made a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah?---the Jewish people.

32. not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.
--
Just in case anyone wonders if “Israel and Judah” are metaphors for the church or any other people group, God assures us that He is literally speaking of literal Israel.

The nation He chose as His own. The nation He chose to reveal Himself to, reveal His character to, reveal His Messiah through, give His Instructions through—that people. The people who broke the old covenant and the people whose fathers were led out of Egypt. That people. (and those grafted in)


33. "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
--
So what is so new about this covenant? What is so different about this covenant? (bear in mind I did not ask, what do we believe is different but what does the text say?)
It says, in THIS covenant I WILL PUT MY LAW within them (the people of Israel) and write it on their hearts!
Wow.
Question: What will be different about this covenant? God will put HIS Law within them and write it on their hearts!

Question: Where was God’s Law put in the first covenant? Answer: It was spoken and written down and taught by Moses, and God instructed His people to IMPRESS His Law on their hearts. God wanted Israel to place, treasure, impress, write His Law/Word on their hearts! Did they do this? NO!
So what does God do in this New Covenant –to come? He decides to WRITE HIS LAW on their hearts!

34. "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,'
--
Pause! Are you telling me that everyone in verse 34 are supposedly saved? Think about what you are saying. Why would someone who is saved need to teach his saved neighbor saying “know the Lord”? I digress.
Sticking to the text. The ‘they is Israel’ remember? Ok, so do you believe that currently all of Israel “knows the Lord” and therefore need not to teach each man his neighbor? Course not.

for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD,
--
Do you believe that EVERYONE, from the least to the greatest of THEM (Israel/Judah) knows the Lord?

"for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
--
Interesting question: Do you believe that God has forgiven ALL of the iniquity of Israel/Judah?

Excuse me, but hebrews was written to jews then, who had remission of sins 9:15, and that applies to 10:17 remember their sins, their sins, and not just that, but just because future people are going to be in the new cov, when they get saved, does not invalidate the fact, that jewish paul, and all the jews in the last 20 centuries that have been saved, came in to the new cov, upon salvation, so u really are diverting, and holding up a strawman.

 

[Frogster]

Let’s do a quick quiz.

How about we try to stay true to the text. No implications. No assumptions. No guesses.
100% Strictly text.

31. "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
--
Question: Do you think God already made a New Covenant with these two houses?
Ever wonder why Hebrews 8 also says “behold, days are coming” and speaks of the entire Covenant in future terms? Don’t you think the author of Hebrews should have clearly said, the day is here! And all of this is here?
Why still ‘behold it’s coming’? Ever thought about that? I digress.

So first question, has God made a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah?---the Jewish people.

32. not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.
--
Just in case anyone wonders if “Israel and Judah” are metaphors for the church or any other people group, God assures us that He is literally speaking of literal Israel.

The nation He chose as His own. The nation He chose to reveal Himself to, reveal His character to, reveal His Messiah through, give His Instructions through—that people. The people who broke the old covenant and the people whose fathers were led out of Egypt. That people. (and those grafted in)


33. "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
--
So what is so new about this covenant? What is so different about this covenant? (bear in mind I did not ask, what do we believe is different but what does the text say?)
It says, in THIS covenant I WILL PUT MY LAW within them (the people of Israel) and write it on their hearts!
Wow.
Question: What will be different about this covenant? God will put HIS Law within them and write it on their hearts!

Question: Where was God’s Law put in the first covenant? Answer: It was spoken and written down and taught by Moses, and God instructed His people to IMPRESS His Law on their hearts. God wanted Israel to place, treasure, impress, write His Law/Word on their hearts! Did they do this? NO!
So what does God do in this New Covenant –to come? He decides to WRITE HIS LAW on their hearts!

34. "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,'
--
Pause! Are you telling me that everyone in verse 34 are supposedly saved? Think about what you are saying. Why would someone who is saved need to teach his saved neighbor saying “know the Lord”? I digress.
Sticking to the text. The ‘they is Israel’ remember? Ok, so do you believe that currently all of Israel “knows the Lord” and therefore need not to teach each man his neighbor? Course not.

for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD,
--
Do you believe that EVERYONE, from the least to the greatest of THEM (Israel/Judah) knows the Lord?

"for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
--
Interesting question: Do you believe that God has forgiven ALL of the iniquity of Israel/Judah?

are you saying gentiles are not in the new cov now?

 

[Clare73]

So, it boils down to, you feel your canon is more correct then the other canons.

In the same way I "feel" that the fire truck is red and sugar is sweet.
The "feeling" is certainty of its reality.

Having opened my mind like I open my mouth-- to close it on something solid, I do not explore other canons.

For me, the Spirit's role is to guide us to the truth (Jn 16:13), as Messiah stated. Peter confirms this when he wrote that we are to "[obey] the truth through the Spirit" (1Pet 1:22). What is the truth? Messiah stated that "thy word is truth." (Jn 17:17). The only Scripture He identified as the "word" is the Law, Prophets, and Writings. My canon, for me, is not just a matter of feeling. My canon is tested by the guidelines given in the Word which Messiah identified as truth; this is how I arrived at my canon.
Interesting ... Paul's words do not have that sense of 'power' to me either.

I suggest you follow that to which the Holy Spirit bears witness to you.

 

[Clare73]

and your theology only works, if we chuck out Luke, which means one Gospel is gone also, the book of Acts is gone, Peter is gone , and Hebrews is gone...wow....

That's only the beginning. Also gone are:

the gospel of Mark
Romans
1 & 2 Co
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
1 & 2 Thessolonians
1 & 2 Timothy
Titus
Philemon

That's some truncated Scriptures, which explains the truncated understanding.